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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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for the 22nd of january

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2010.

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episode number 66 richard saunders here

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with you once again

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episode 66 huh on the 22nd of

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january 6622

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okay all you numerologists out there

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get working and speaking of

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numerologists you have to be a bit of a

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numerologist to work out the fantastic

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numbers involved with the

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ludicrous bogus and quack modality known

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as homeopathy

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and a bit of a win for outsider this

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week where two websites run by

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homeopathy plus in this country have

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been ordered to remove misleading and

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unverified information

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from their websites about homeopathic

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vaccination

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now this order has been made by the

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therapeutics goods administration the

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tga here in this country

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the retraction that the homeopathy plus

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are required to put on their website

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reads as follows

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retraction an advertisement for

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homeopathic immunization products which

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we published on this website should not

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have been published in the advertisement

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we unlawfully made the claims that

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homeopathic immunization products could

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aid immunity were alternatives to

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vaccination and that they could prevent

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or protect against infectious diseases

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including serious infectious diseases

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we also made claims that an advertised

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homeopathic product was more effective

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than antiviral medication

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a complaint about the advertisement was

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recently upheld by the complaints

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resolution panel

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we did not provide adequate evidence to

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support the claims made in the

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advertisement and the panel found that

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the claims were unlawful misleading and

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unverified and breached the therapeutics

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goods advertising code the panel

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therefore requests that homeopathy plus

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publish this retraction

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so there you go

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a bit of a win for our side this week in

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australia more news about that can be

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www.skeptics.com or at dr h's very own

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blog the skeptics book of poopoo at

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skepticsbook.com

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but now on to this week's show

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this week's show we've got a sort of a

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double barrel kylie sturgis interview

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special she starts off by interviewing

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michael marshall from the merseyside

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skeptics there in the uk

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and he's going to be talking about many

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things including the upcoming 1023

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homeopathy

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campaign then kylie interviews a famous

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australian blogger sean the blogger

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naught

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after all that we can relax in the nice

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hot tub with me brian dunning and a

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bunch of skeptics in a special

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californian edition of the think tank

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so sit back grab that champagne and

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i'm carly sturgis and i'm talking to

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michael marshall

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amongst the merseyside skeptics is a

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presenter of the righteous indignation

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podcast

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and skeptics with a k

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the 1023 campaign found at

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1023.org dot uk

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is challenging homeopathy and hopefully

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will manage to do it worldwide

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the 1023 campaign aims to raise

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awareness about the realities of

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homeopathy not only investigating the

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claims but why people should care

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as a member of the merseyside skeptic

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society a non-profit organization for

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the promotion of scientific skepticism

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okay marsh i guess my first question is

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is there anything that you don't do for

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skepticism

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well yeah that's a very good question um

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well first of all i uh i helped run the

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motorcycle skeptic society um which runs

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liverpool skeptics in the pub so i try

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uh as best i can and keep uh regular

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speakers come along there we've only

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been doing talks since i think october

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although we've existed since february so

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we had a bit of a kind of uh uh a run-up

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basically we just thought we'd uh try

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and gauge how much um interest and

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opinion there would be in in merseyside

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before we started and it turns out

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there's quite a lot so we went with it

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so yeah so i organized the liverpool

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skeptics in the pub um i'm on the

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skeptics for the care podcast i present

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that with uh with mike and with colin

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from uh from from the mss from most of

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our skeptics um which listens to the

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skeptics going skeptic zone might have

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actually heard um that's our really

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unprofessional sounding trailer in the

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middle of the skeptic zone every now and

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again where we kind of just mumble and

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things that would be us um i also

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presented yeah you shouldn't be so tough

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on yourself it's great to be able to

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support other podcasts it's great yeah

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well it was really fantastic for the

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skeptics on to run it um yeah i also um

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present the righteous indignation

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podcast uh as well which is a weekly uh

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show which is uh a bit more sort of

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formalized and structured uh another

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than that i'm called running the 1023

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campaign which is the big campaign

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that's happening in the uk and hopefully

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around the rest of the globe at the

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moment um to bring homeopathy to light

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in order for our audience to get a bit

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of context what exactly is boots and why

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are they in particular being challenged

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by the first leg of the 1023 campaign

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boots are around the leading pharmacy in

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the uk um they're they're huge they're

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on every high street and they're

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synonymous with healthcare really so

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they've got a a a incredibly um

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incredibly professional reputation and

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incredibly um legitimate reputation

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they're where people turn

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first and foremost for their

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pharmaceuticals which is why it's

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incredibly disappointing um that they

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sell their own brand of homeopathy as

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well as a leading brand of homeopathy

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right there in the in the shop next to

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the real medicines i was wondering if

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like in australia there's several

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different pharmacies or drug stores that

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could possibly be targeted in this

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campaign

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well there are but uh none with a

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legitimacy that a pharmacy with the

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reputation of boots can lend it um there

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are other shops in the uk things like

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holland and barrett's and health food

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shops that sell homeopathy but they

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don't sell prescription medicines and

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cough medicines and and flu remedies

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that are a genuine medicine in boots

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it's very very difficult to distinguish

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between um the real medicines and the

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alternative medicines there's just a

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little a little side

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side

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stall a shelf with the words alternative

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medicines and uh all the homeopathy and

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the herbal stuff right on there and

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there's nothing to say that this stuff

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isn't proven if i'm not mistaken there's

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quite a history of political and popular

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support for homeopathy in the uk isn't

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there

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yeah it's it's um i'd say it's more

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pervasive than a lot of people would

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realize i don't think it's uh

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necessarily something that your ev your

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average man on the street has tried um

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but it's uh the industry's worth around

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about 40 million pounds i believe um

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plus the nhs actually supports

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homeopathy um it's uh spends around

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about four million pounds a year on um

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four homeopathic hospitals um one of

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which is actually situated in liverpool

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which is uh where where uh where i live

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which is uh why it's a particular bug

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bearer of ours

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yeah i can imagine why it would be quite

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insulting to have that appear right on

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your yeah endorsed it it's absolutely

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crazy that uh that that the government

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health service the national health

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service actually supports this stuff

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even though it's been proven and

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whenever uh they're asked about it they

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tend to say well people wanted so we

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provide it which is a bit of a cop-out

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when it comes to medicine because

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you don't give people what they want you

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give them what can be proven to work

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so what initially inspired the 1023

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campaign um that's a very good question

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actually it was it was something i came

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up while we were at one of our skeptics

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and pub socials up in liverpool and we

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saw that um

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all there were many bloggers doing some

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great work when it came to the simon

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singh um case and the chiropractic the

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general chiropractic council and the

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beca um there were some great bloggers

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who were taking apart the claims of

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chiropractors and um calling into task

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for some of the more outrageous

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statements you were making um and it

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occurred to us that that was a really um

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powerful way for your average sort of

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skeptic to get involved and to really

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lend a hand but while everyone's

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attention was turned to chiropractic

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manipulation and chiropractors there was

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a real possibility that other forms of

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pseudoscience and pseudomedicine might

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sort of uh flourish with the the

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spotlight turned off them so we thought

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why not uh let other people take care of

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the chiropractors and we'll try and put

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something together where um a similar

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band of bloggers anyone who wants to get

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involved can gather together under the

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umbrella of one campaign and take a look

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at homeopathy

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i've noticed on social networking sites

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like twitter that there's even an effort

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to get overseas people involved

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absolutely we're trying to encourage it

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to spread as wide as possible um

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although the campaign itself is largely

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uk focused we really want to support uh

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international international blogs and

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international skeptics um so it's a case

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of um look around you you know keep an

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eye out for for um claims made by

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homeopaths visit your local homeopaths

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visit pharmacies that sell homeopathic

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remedies and try and get a good uh a

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good idea of the lie of the land locally

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and then use the 10 23

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umbrella the 10 23 band to uh to start

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taking apart the claims of homeopaths to

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start drawing attention to them and and

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subjecting them to criticism and

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analysis and also to make people aware

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of what homeopathy is and fundamentally

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what it isn't which is it isn't real

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medicine i've read in the news that the

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house of commons parliamentary science

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watchdog about boots insistence on

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selling homeopathic preparations their

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chief pharmacist professional standards

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director paul bennett admitted that they

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had no evidence so doesn't this possibly

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contravene consumer rights or trade

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practices acts well that's certainly

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something we're looking into um what

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we're doing at the moment with the

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campaign and uh

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i i will stress that the 10 23 campaign

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is more directed to homeopaths in

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general than homeopathy the system of

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homeopathy in general but at the moment

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we've chosen to focus an arm of the

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campaign on boots because in part of

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this admission by uh by paul bennett

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that boots sell homeopathy not because

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they can prove it works or because the

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the evidence is there to support it but

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just because it sells and no it's

286
00:10:32,949 --> 00:10:30,959
absolutely not a good number he's an

287
00:10:34,230 --> 00:10:32,959
absolutely yeah it's really not a good

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enough reason at all and it certainly

289
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doesn't um stand to the the policy of

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exceptional patient care which the

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pharmacy um proclaims

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uh so i i think absolutely uh that it's

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worth taking we are taking a look at uh

294
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whether it is uh a remit there of

295
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trading standards and advertising

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standards and things like that i know in

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the uk you have to make direct claims of

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efficacy and direct claims of what it

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can cure before you can be called to

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action or call to task but that's

301
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something we're definitely looking into

302
00:11:03,269 --> 00:11:01,920
but i think as much as anything um the

303
00:11:05,990 --> 00:11:03,279
what we have on the side which is an

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open letter appealing to boots to to

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reconsider the sale of homeopathy um i

306
00:11:12,069 --> 00:11:09,680
think that's the first step because we

307
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don't want to go in um all guns blazing

308
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and and start

309
00:11:17,030 --> 00:11:15,279
laying down the law it's a much much

310
00:11:18,949 --> 00:11:17,040
better situation if boots realize that

311
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this that selling something that they

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00:11:22,870 --> 00:11:20,399
can't prove works and that has been

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00:11:24,389 --> 00:11:22,880
proven not to work is bad patient care

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and if they can take it off the shelves

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00:11:28,389 --> 00:11:26,399
themselves you know we we will continue

316
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to support boots and their uh their

317
00:11:32,470 --> 00:11:29,920
excellent reputation but until that

318
00:11:34,150 --> 00:11:32,480
happens um it's a bit of a bit of a big

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00:11:35,829 --> 00:11:34,160
black mark on their on their conscience

320
00:11:37,590 --> 00:11:35,839
and on their reputation i think when i

321
00:11:39,670 --> 00:11:37,600
first heard about the campaign i was

322
00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:39,680
reminded of the australian skeptic's

323
00:11:45,190 --> 00:11:42,640
open letter to pharmacies yes i mean we

324
00:11:47,590 --> 00:11:45,200
did actually uh i'll admit we lifted

325
00:11:49,430 --> 00:11:47,600
fairly wholesale from your uh from your

326
00:11:51,509 --> 00:11:49,440
letter certainly about ear candling and

327
00:11:52,949 --> 00:11:51,519
um

328
00:11:55,030 --> 00:11:52,959
you'll be getting a letter from richard

329
00:11:57,030 --> 00:11:55,040
saunders now dear

330
00:11:58,150 --> 00:11:57,040
well fortunately enough once we put our

331
00:11:59,990 --> 00:11:58,160
letter to boots out i actually got an

332
00:12:01,750 --> 00:12:00,000
email from uh from iran and from richard

333
00:12:02,949 --> 00:12:01,760
who were uh they were supportive of our

334
00:12:06,230 --> 00:12:02,959
campaign and were

335
00:12:07,990 --> 00:12:06,240
quite happy for us to to use uh the the

336
00:12:11,350 --> 00:12:08,000
jumping ground the jumping butt and it

337
00:12:12,550 --> 00:12:11,360
doesn't make sense

338
00:12:13,829 --> 00:12:12,560
the launching pad that's the one they

339
00:12:15,350 --> 00:12:13,839
were quite happy for us to use your

340
00:12:16,790 --> 00:12:15,360
letter as a launching pad for our letter

341
00:12:18,790 --> 00:12:16,800
because i think uh

342
00:12:20,629 --> 00:12:18,800
ultimately what we what we as skeptics

343
00:12:22,550 --> 00:12:20,639
need to do in general is is stop

344
00:12:23,430 --> 00:12:22,560
reinventing the wheel um and i think

345
00:12:25,590 --> 00:12:23,440
that was something that we were trying

346
00:12:26,470 --> 00:12:25,600
to do with the 10 23 campaign it was

347
00:12:28,150 --> 00:12:26,480
there were a lot of people who were

348
00:12:30,790 --> 00:12:28,160
individually taking homeopathy

349
00:12:32,310 --> 00:12:30,800
homeopathy and the claims mid apart um

350
00:12:33,750 --> 00:12:32,320
but they were doing it individually in

351
00:12:35,350 --> 00:12:33,760
the same kind of way as each other

352
00:12:36,629 --> 00:12:35,360
whereas now we've tried to sort of put a

353
00:12:38,389 --> 00:12:36,639
little system in place when you say

354
00:12:40,069 --> 00:12:38,399
right this one's done someone's done

355
00:12:41,910 --> 00:12:40,079
this part of it so you can focus your

356
00:12:43,910 --> 00:12:41,920
attention elsewhere and everyone doesn't

357
00:12:45,910 --> 00:12:43,920
have to be doing the same thing um the

358
00:12:47,910 --> 00:12:45,920
ground works there is already done for

359
00:12:49,670 --> 00:12:47,920
them and they can use it to uh to go

360
00:12:51,910 --> 00:12:49,680
further really so this is just the

361
00:12:53,350 --> 00:12:51,920
beginning of the 1023 campaign and i'm

362
00:12:55,750 --> 00:12:53,360
certain that you've got a lot more on

363
00:12:57,509 --> 00:12:55,760
the cards can overseas people perhaps

364
00:12:59,670 --> 00:12:57,519
contribute more

365
00:13:00,790 --> 00:12:59,680
yeah absolutely um if anyone wants to to

366
00:13:02,470 --> 00:13:00,800
check out what we've got on the site at

367
00:13:04,629 --> 00:13:02,480
the moment um we've got um an

368
00:13:07,110 --> 00:13:04,639
explanation of what homeopathy is about

369
00:13:09,269 --> 00:13:07,120
we've also got uh 10 reasons not to use

370
00:13:11,670 --> 00:13:09,279
homeopathy um which was something that

371
00:13:12,949 --> 00:13:11,680
we felt was a strong

372
00:13:14,389 --> 00:13:12,959
piece of content for the site because a

373
00:13:16,150 --> 00:13:14,399
lot of people say well you know we can

374
00:13:18,470 --> 00:13:16,160
still use homeopathy it works alongside

375
00:13:20,069 --> 00:13:18,480
real medicine well it doesn't and if you

376
00:13:22,230 --> 00:13:20,079
check out those 10 reasons it's things

377
00:13:23,990 --> 00:13:22,240
like it's a waste of your money as a

378
00:13:25,509 --> 00:13:24,000
customer but it's also waste of

379
00:13:28,150 --> 00:13:25,519
everyone's money with with the tax

380
00:13:29,750 --> 00:13:28,160
dollar the tax uh money going into it

381
00:13:31,030 --> 00:13:29,760
from the nhs and also it's a waste of

382
00:13:32,710 --> 00:13:31,040
your time you could be getting better

383
00:13:33,829 --> 00:13:32,720
care and it's worth everyone's time

384
00:13:35,030 --> 00:13:33,839
because we could be researching

385
00:13:37,350 --> 00:13:35,040
something else you know we could spend

386
00:13:38,150 --> 00:13:37,360
that time actually finding more cures

387
00:13:41,590 --> 00:13:38,160
more

388
00:13:43,509 --> 00:13:41,600
work um so on the site there's a there's

389
00:13:45,110 --> 00:13:43,519
an essay on that um and there's also a

390
00:13:46,470 --> 00:13:45,120
way of getting involved we've got videos

391
00:13:48,629 --> 00:13:46,480
up there so

392
00:13:50,470 --> 00:13:48,639
there's plenty on there for people to uh

393
00:13:51,990 --> 00:13:50,480
to to pick up information on homeopathy

394
00:13:53,590 --> 00:13:52,000
and hopefully then spread it around

395
00:13:55,990 --> 00:13:53,600
people they know so if next time

396
00:13:58,550 --> 00:13:56,000
someone's recommending homeopathy or uh

397
00:14:00,470 --> 00:13:58,560
or or contemplating trying it um people

398
00:14:02,150 --> 00:14:00,480
can be in a position to to explain what

399
00:14:03,829 --> 00:14:02,160
it is and what it isn't uh well it

400
00:14:06,550 --> 00:14:03,839
started already if you go to the uh the

401
00:14:08,949 --> 00:14:06,560
website 1023.org dot uk uh that's all in

402
00:14:10,470 --> 00:14:08,959
numbers one or two three dot uk um

403
00:14:13,189 --> 00:14:10,480
there's a there's a form there's people

404
00:14:14,949 --> 00:14:13,199
to get involved um so far we've put our

405
00:14:16,629 --> 00:14:14,959
first piece of activism out there so we

406
00:14:18,550 --> 00:14:16,639
want to try and set people uh small

407
00:14:20,629 --> 00:14:18,560
actions that they can get involved in

408
00:14:22,629 --> 00:14:20,639
and hopefully it will contribute to a a

409
00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:22,639
larger movement um so the first piece of

410
00:14:26,470 --> 00:14:24,240
action is to sign the letter to boots

411
00:14:27,910 --> 00:14:26,480
and and uh appeal to them to stop

412
00:14:29,430 --> 00:14:27,920
selling something that doesn't work yeah

413
00:14:31,269 --> 00:14:29,440
so that's the first piece of action um

414
00:14:33,269 --> 00:14:31,279
we've actually just launched the second

415
00:14:35,110 --> 00:14:33,279
piece of action uh which involves a few

416
00:14:36,550 --> 00:14:35,120
little tasks for people to do

417
00:14:38,710 --> 00:14:36,560
one of which is to sign a petition to

418
00:14:40,069 --> 00:14:38,720
the government to uh have the the

419
00:14:41,430 --> 00:14:40,079
government regulatory body take a look

420
00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:41,440
at homeopathy and whether it should be

421
00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:43,680
funded by the nhs um so they can sign

422
00:14:48,069 --> 00:14:45,360
that petition if you're based in the uk

423
00:14:50,069 --> 00:14:48,079
um we also have up there a flyer

424
00:14:51,990 --> 00:14:50,079
which can be downloaded and

425
00:14:54,949 --> 00:14:52,000
given to people given to people given to

426
00:14:55,670 --> 00:14:54,959
homeopaths left in pharmacies in that

427
00:14:57,829 --> 00:14:55,680
that

428
00:14:59,590 --> 00:14:57,839
sell homeopathy which explains what

429
00:15:01,030 --> 00:14:59,600
homeopathy is and what it isn't and why

430
00:15:02,310 --> 00:15:01,040
it shouldn't be considered an

431
00:15:04,550 --> 00:15:02,320
alternative to real medicine so you can

432
00:15:05,350 --> 00:15:04,560
download that flyer and distribute that

433
00:15:09,990 --> 00:15:05,360
um

434
00:15:12,470 --> 00:15:10,000
not stay quiet so if they see a story on

435
00:15:14,230 --> 00:15:12,480
in an online newspaper or on a blog um

436
00:15:15,509 --> 00:15:14,240
feel free to comment on that blog to

437
00:15:17,910 --> 00:15:15,519
point them to the in the direction of

438
00:15:21,189 --> 00:15:17,920
our website to explain to them the the

439
00:15:23,509 --> 00:15:21,199
rules behind homeopathy and uh to

440
00:15:25,189 --> 00:15:23,519
to stop being uh as much as possible the

441
00:15:26,949 --> 00:15:25,199
armchair skeptic and and to sort of roll

442
00:15:28,389 --> 00:15:26,959
up their sleeves and try and help out

443
00:15:30,150 --> 00:15:28,399
well i'm very pleased to say that

444
00:15:32,150 --> 00:15:30,160
there's a few australian skeptical

445
00:15:35,269 --> 00:15:32,160
groups out there who are hoping to test

446
00:15:37,350 --> 00:15:35,279
out the uh efficacy or inefficacy of

447
00:15:39,269 --> 00:15:37,360
homeopathy over the weekend

448
00:15:41,110 --> 00:15:39,279
i think it's particularly wonderful that

449
00:15:43,710 --> 00:15:41,120
we've just started hearing about how

450
00:15:46,069 --> 00:15:43,720
websites like homeopathy plus and

451
00:15:47,750 --> 00:15:46,079
dnh.org have been ordered to remove

452
00:15:50,550 --> 00:15:47,760
information suggesting that they can

453
00:15:52,069 --> 00:15:50,560
provide homeopathic immunization after

454
00:15:54,069 --> 00:15:52,079
there was a complaint made to the

455
00:15:55,829 --> 00:15:54,079
therapeutic goods administration

456
00:15:58,230 --> 00:15:55,839
absolutely and i think um the internet

457
00:16:00,550 --> 00:15:58,240
is uh is proving more and more to be the

458
00:16:02,310 --> 00:16:00,560
uh the most amazing tool for getting

459
00:16:04,550 --> 00:16:02,320
people involved and we see that time and

460
00:16:06,470 --> 00:16:04,560
time again with bloggers and and even

461
00:16:08,389 --> 00:16:06,480
with the advent of uh with the advent of

462
00:16:09,670 --> 00:16:08,399
twitter um i think this campaign is

463
00:16:11,030 --> 00:16:09,680
really taking off as much as anything on

464
00:16:13,110 --> 00:16:11,040
twitter if if people want to check out

465
00:16:16,550 --> 00:16:13,120
on twitter um search for the

466
00:16:18,150 --> 00:16:16,560
1023 that's ten23 because twitter

467
00:16:19,350 --> 00:16:18,160
doesn't really like numbers too much uh

468
00:16:20,550 --> 00:16:19,360
if you want to search for that hashtag

469
00:16:23,189 --> 00:16:20,560
on twitter you'll see there's a whole

470
00:16:25,829 --> 00:16:23,199
flurry of activity on a fairly constant

471
00:16:27,110 --> 00:16:25,839
basis of people putting up information

472
00:16:30,150 --> 00:16:27,120
about the site and about the the

473
00:16:32,470 --> 00:16:30,160
campaigns 1023.org.uk

474
00:16:34,230 --> 00:16:32,480
and that's 1023 in numbers thanks again

475
00:16:35,910 --> 00:16:34,240
marsh for being a part of our show

476
00:16:37,590 --> 00:16:35,920
excellent thank you very much and you

477
00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:37,600
can find more of his work on the

478
00:16:42,790 --> 00:16:39,920
righteous indignation podcast the

479
00:16:46,629 --> 00:16:42,800
skeptics with a k podcast the merseyside

480
00:17:01,269 --> 00:16:46,639
skeptics and of course the 1023.org

481
00:17:05,270 --> 00:17:03,269
astronomy cast takes a fact-based

482
00:17:07,029 --> 00:17:05,280
journey through the cosmos as it offers

483
00:17:09,669 --> 00:17:07,039
listeners weekly discussions on

484
00:17:11,029 --> 00:17:09,679
astronomical topics ranging from planets

485
00:17:13,510 --> 00:17:11,039
to cosmology

486
00:17:15,510 --> 00:17:13,520
hosted by fraser kane of universe today

487
00:17:17,829 --> 00:17:15,520
and myself dr pamela gay of southern

488
00:17:19,590 --> 00:17:17,839
illinois university edwardsville this

489
00:17:21,350 --> 00:17:19,600
show brings the questions of an avid

490
00:17:22,470 --> 00:17:21,360
astronomy lover directly to an

491
00:17:24,470 --> 00:17:22,480
astronomer

492
00:17:26,069 --> 00:17:24,480
together fraser and i explore what is

493
00:17:27,669 --> 00:17:26,079
known and being discovered about the

494
00:17:29,270 --> 00:17:27,679
universe around us

495
00:17:31,350 --> 00:17:29,280
join us each week as we take a

496
00:17:41,510 --> 00:17:31,360
fact-based journey through the cosmos at

497
00:17:45,350 --> 00:17:44,150
i'm kylie sturgis and i'm talking to

498
00:17:48,630 --> 00:17:45,360
sean wright

499
00:17:50,870 --> 00:17:48,640
in 2009 shaun wright won the nexus monte

500
00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:50,880
miller award it is named after a

501
00:17:55,190 --> 00:17:52,960
prominent 19th century pre-thought

502
00:17:57,669 --> 00:17:55,200
advocate monty miller and is presented

503
00:17:59,750 --> 00:17:57,679
annually to an australian new zealand or

504
00:18:01,669 --> 00:17:59,760
south pacific atheist who has made an

505
00:18:04,070 --> 00:18:01,679
outstanding contribution to advancing

506
00:18:05,590 --> 00:18:04,080
the cause of free thought in this region

507
00:18:09,270 --> 00:18:05,600
it may involve work in the fields of

508
00:18:12,710 --> 00:18:09,280
atheism skepticism humanism rationalism

509
00:18:14,150 --> 00:18:12,720
or in the case of 2009 all of these

510
00:18:16,150 --> 00:18:14,160
thanks for joining us on this skeptic

511
00:18:17,909 --> 00:18:16,160
zone sean now people might recognize

512
00:18:20,870 --> 00:18:17,919
your name as the author of a rather

513
00:18:22,549 --> 00:18:20,880
spiffy looking steampunk themed blog

514
00:18:24,630 --> 00:18:22,559
in the press release from the atheist

515
00:18:26,230 --> 00:18:24,640
nexus for the monty miller award you're

516
00:18:29,110 --> 00:18:26,240
described as an advocate for those

517
00:18:31,029 --> 00:18:29,120
survivors of the mercy ministries church

518
00:18:32,950 --> 00:18:31,039
and also an investigator of the

519
00:18:34,710 --> 00:18:32,960
activities of hillsong church and

520
00:18:37,110 --> 00:18:34,720
committed to challenging the claims of

521
00:18:39,029 --> 00:18:37,120
meryl dory's australian vaccination

522
00:18:40,230 --> 00:18:39,039
network so how would you describe

523
00:18:43,190 --> 00:18:40,240
yourself

524
00:18:45,270 --> 00:18:43,200
how would i describe myself

525
00:18:47,990 --> 00:18:45,280
i always find that sort of question a

526
00:18:49,909 --> 00:18:48,000
bit a bit difficult it's like answering

527
00:18:53,350 --> 00:18:49,919
uh an interview question when they ask

528
00:18:54,470 --> 00:18:53,360
you to uh tell us about yourself tell us

529
00:18:58,150 --> 00:18:54,480
why

530
00:18:59,510 --> 00:18:58,160
good enough for the position or whatever

531
00:19:01,190 --> 00:18:59,520
so

532
00:19:02,710 --> 00:19:01,200
yeah i suppose it's a bit difficult but

533
00:19:10,150 --> 00:19:02,720
uh

534
00:19:11,430 --> 00:19:10,160
atheist a skeptic and a humanist

535
00:19:13,350 --> 00:19:11,440
so

536
00:19:15,270 --> 00:19:13,360
i guess that's that is how i describe

537
00:19:18,230 --> 00:19:15,280
myself uh

538
00:19:20,310 --> 00:19:18,240
i think it necessary to be upfront and

539
00:19:22,070 --> 00:19:20,320
open about my atheism

540
00:19:24,070 --> 00:19:22,080
i'd like to see that change in the long

541
00:19:27,110 --> 00:19:24,080
term perhaps 20 30 years down the track

542
00:19:30,549 --> 00:19:27,120
where you don't have to

543
00:19:32,150 --> 00:19:30,559
to be so upfront about that part of your

544
00:19:34,390 --> 00:19:32,160
um

545
00:19:36,549 --> 00:19:34,400
your life uh you know what what you

546
00:19:38,310 --> 00:19:36,559
believe in but um

547
00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:38,320
yeah i think at this point in time it's

548
00:19:42,230 --> 00:19:40,240
necessary to be up front

549
00:19:44,230 --> 00:19:42,240
uh to say

550
00:19:46,789 --> 00:19:44,240
as an atheist here i am i'm a good

551
00:19:49,590 --> 00:19:46,799
person i'm a community-minded person

552
00:19:52,070 --> 00:19:49,600
i'm a deep thinker

553
00:19:55,750 --> 00:19:52,080
and none of that is down to an

554
00:19:57,990 --> 00:19:55,760
omniscient uh or knowing or seeing

555
00:19:59,430 --> 00:19:58,000
all doing god so

556
00:20:02,230 --> 00:19:59,440
that's why i think it's important to be

557
00:20:03,990 --> 00:20:02,240
open and up front as an atheist

558
00:20:07,909 --> 00:20:04,000
as a skeptic yeah i think i see

559
00:20:10,310 --> 00:20:07,919
skepticism as tied in with my atheism

560
00:20:12,710 --> 00:20:10,320
i like to think i've the decisions i

561
00:20:15,510 --> 00:20:12,720
make in life are based on thinking

562
00:20:18,070 --> 00:20:15,520
deeply about a situation

563
00:20:20,310 --> 00:20:18,080
uh examining all the claims so yeah and

564
00:20:22,310 --> 00:20:20,320
being aware of uh

565
00:20:25,190 --> 00:20:22,320
you know the things about our our

566
00:20:27,430 --> 00:20:25,200
humanity you know cognitive biases that

567
00:20:29,750 --> 00:20:27,440
sort of thing the way

568
00:20:31,830 --> 00:20:29,760
perception can be altered by our

569
00:20:32,789 --> 00:20:31,840
emotional state at the time that sort of

570
00:20:37,430 --> 00:20:32,799
thing

571
00:20:40,870 --> 00:20:37,440
there and affect our views on the world

572
00:20:42,950 --> 00:20:40,880
and yeah so i think i define myself as a

573
00:20:44,710 --> 00:20:42,960
big ass skeptic as as

574
00:20:48,390 --> 00:20:44,720
as opposed to a little less skeptic i

575
00:20:49,350 --> 00:20:48,400
think i think i've always been skeptical

576
00:20:51,110 --> 00:20:49,360
about

577
00:20:54,230 --> 00:20:51,120
most things i think a good decent

578
00:20:56,310 --> 00:20:54,240
education in australia

579
00:20:58,789 --> 00:20:56,320
sort of does give you a

580
00:21:01,029 --> 00:20:58,799
a reasonable skepticism and then as a

581
00:21:03,909 --> 00:21:01,039
humanist i'm not not a card carrying

582
00:21:05,830 --> 00:21:03,919
member of any humanist organization but

583
00:21:08,149 --> 00:21:05,840
i suppose that's

584
00:21:11,270 --> 00:21:08,159
that's the opposite to my atheism my

585
00:21:13,110 --> 00:21:11,280
atheism is is what i don't believe in

586
00:21:15,270 --> 00:21:13,120
whereas the humanist side of me is you

587
00:21:17,750 --> 00:21:15,280
know these are the

588
00:21:20,149 --> 00:21:17,760
the aspirations uh

589
00:21:22,310 --> 00:21:20,159
you know the principles that i that i

590
00:21:25,510 --> 00:21:22,320
you know try to live by so in a general

591
00:21:27,029 --> 00:21:25,520
sense i'd say i'm humanist i i i believe

592
00:21:28,390 --> 00:21:27,039
in being uh

593
00:21:31,110 --> 00:21:28,400
active in the community and that's

594
00:21:33,510 --> 00:21:31,120
active for everyone not just skeptics or

595
00:21:36,070 --> 00:21:33,520
atheists you know i believe in in

596
00:21:38,549 --> 00:21:36,080
doing the least harm

597
00:21:40,470 --> 00:21:38,559
in all situations or you know do no harm

598
00:21:41,190 --> 00:21:40,480
but sometimes we don't have that choice

599
00:21:42,789 --> 00:21:41,200
but

600
00:21:45,029 --> 00:21:42,799
some of the topics you've investigated

601
00:21:47,190 --> 00:21:45,039
in your writings include hillsong church

602
00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:47,200
and their activities in australia can

603
00:21:50,630 --> 00:21:48,480
you tell us how you came to be

604
00:21:52,870 --> 00:21:50,640
interested i suppose i've been writing

605
00:21:54,230 --> 00:21:52,880
about them over the last two years

606
00:21:56,549 --> 00:21:54,240
i think it probably comes down to a

607
00:21:58,390 --> 00:21:56,559
number of different circumstances led me

608
00:22:00,710 --> 00:21:58,400
to write about hillsong one that sticks

609
00:22:03,110 --> 00:22:00,720
out in my mind is of course reading tony

610
00:22:05,350 --> 00:22:03,120
11's book people in glass houses they

611
00:22:08,230 --> 00:22:05,360
gave me a sort of a broader background

612
00:22:12,549 --> 00:22:08,240
on the church i've always been

613
00:22:14,149 --> 00:22:12,559
somewhat wary of evangelical churches uh

614
00:22:15,590 --> 00:22:14,159
that stems from sort of earlier

615
00:22:18,390 --> 00:22:15,600
experiences

616
00:22:20,230 --> 00:22:18,400
in my formative years i guess you'd say

617
00:22:21,909 --> 00:22:20,240
when i was still a practicing christian

618
00:22:25,270 --> 00:22:21,919
i was invited along by a couple of

619
00:22:27,029 --> 00:22:25,280
friends to an assemblies of god church

620
00:22:29,110 --> 00:22:27,039
the assemblies of god were a precursor

621
00:22:31,110 --> 00:22:29,120
to to the group of churches of which

622
00:22:32,630 --> 00:22:31,120
hillsong is a

623
00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:32,640
more prominent

624
00:22:37,110 --> 00:22:34,960
member but yeah i was invited along to

625
00:22:38,149 --> 00:22:37,120
these assemblies of god church didn't

626
00:22:39,830 --> 00:22:38,159
mind the

627
00:22:42,310 --> 00:22:39,840
the rock band uh

628
00:22:44,950 --> 00:22:42,320
the rock style music we found the la la

629
00:22:47,590 --> 00:22:44,960
the lyrics are a bit naff and a bit

630
00:22:50,390 --> 00:22:47,600
bit out of place i guess you could say

631
00:22:52,390 --> 00:22:50,400
but uh you know that side of it the the

632
00:22:54,310 --> 00:22:52,400
jubilant nature

633
00:22:57,029 --> 00:22:54,320
of the service i suppose was was

634
00:22:59,430 --> 00:22:57,039
interesting and refreshing what scared

635
00:23:01,430 --> 00:22:59,440
me and scared me in the sense that um

636
00:23:04,950 --> 00:23:01,440
not that i was actually

637
00:23:06,789 --> 00:23:04,960
in fear of uh the holy spirit or

638
00:23:09,350 --> 00:23:06,799
some sort of spirit possessing people

639
00:23:12,789 --> 00:23:09,360
would but it was witnessing uh adults

640
00:23:14,549 --> 00:23:12,799
and in some cases people that i knew

641
00:23:17,430 --> 00:23:14,559
uh waving their hands in the air and

642
00:23:19,750 --> 00:23:17,440
then and then talking in tongues that uh

643
00:23:23,350 --> 00:23:19,760
it scared me because you were

644
00:23:26,310 --> 00:23:23,360
intelligent adults some of whom i i had

645
00:23:29,190 --> 00:23:26,320
respect for behaving in a way that i i

646
00:23:32,230 --> 00:23:29,200
thought was um extremely weird i suppose

647
00:23:34,950 --> 00:23:32,240
i've you know i've always had a certain

648
00:23:36,470 --> 00:23:34,960
degree of skepticism and now that that

649
00:23:38,070 --> 00:23:36,480
demonstration

650
00:23:39,990 --> 00:23:38,080
just felt uh

651
00:23:43,190 --> 00:23:40,000
i suppose dishonest to me

652
00:23:45,350 --> 00:23:43,200
so yeah i've had this weariness of

653
00:23:46,789 --> 00:23:45,360
the evangelical approach to things and

654
00:23:48,310 --> 00:23:46,799
then of course my two friends that

655
00:23:51,750 --> 00:23:48,320
invited me along to that service then

656
00:23:53,029 --> 00:23:51,760
went on to join another church uh even

657
00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:53,039
more

658
00:23:58,310 --> 00:23:56,720
than hillsong

659
00:24:00,390 --> 00:23:58,320
called the potter's house and they're

660
00:24:02,310 --> 00:24:00,400
they're still active in my my hometown

661
00:24:04,870 --> 00:24:02,320
and i've had

662
00:24:07,909 --> 00:24:04,880
run-ins with their pastor on the street

663
00:24:09,590 --> 00:24:07,919
um and uses pretty underhanded preaching

664
00:24:11,750 --> 00:24:09,600
techniques you know emotional

665
00:24:13,909 --> 00:24:11,760
steamrolling that sort of thing so even

666
00:24:16,149 --> 00:24:13,919
as a christian then continuing when i

667
00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:16,159
became an atheist i've i've had an

668
00:24:21,190 --> 00:24:19,200
awareness surrounding evangelical style

669
00:24:22,390 --> 00:24:21,200
churches and then

670
00:24:24,149 --> 00:24:22,400
of course watching the media and

671
00:24:25,990 --> 00:24:24,159
following hillsong there's uh there's

672
00:24:28,470 --> 00:24:26,000
been a number of things that put them in

673
00:24:30,070 --> 00:24:28,480
the spotlight for the wrong reasons and

674
00:24:31,909 --> 00:24:30,080
and i suppose supporters of the church

675
00:24:35,510 --> 00:24:31,919
like to claim that they're persecuted

676
00:24:37,909 --> 00:24:35,520
but um i think

677
00:24:40,070 --> 00:24:37,919
there's criticism warranted if you go

678
00:24:42,070 --> 00:24:40,080
back uh even into the early church

679
00:24:43,830 --> 00:24:42,080
history you've got frank houston brian

680
00:24:46,070 --> 00:24:43,840
houston's father's

681
00:24:46,950 --> 00:24:46,080
admitted to sexually molesting a young

682
00:24:50,630 --> 00:24:46,960
boy

683
00:24:52,390 --> 00:24:50,640
yet uh despite uh the law uh currently i

684
00:24:53,990 --> 00:24:52,400
think the law at the time

685
00:24:56,710 --> 00:24:54,000
nothing was ever reported to police he

686
00:24:59,430 --> 00:24:56,720
was he never faced any charges he was

687
00:25:01,590 --> 00:24:59,440
just put to the side swept away

688
00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:01,600
and not dealt with aside from that

689
00:25:05,350 --> 00:25:03,520
you've got scandals

690
00:25:07,990 --> 00:25:05,360
surrounding the misappropriation of

691
00:25:09,909 --> 00:25:08,000
funds for indigenous programs you've got

692
00:25:13,510 --> 00:25:09,919
infiltration into schools through the

693
00:25:15,269 --> 00:25:13,520
shine program and through exo days well

694
00:25:17,510 --> 00:25:15,279
so yeah i think there's

695
00:25:19,590 --> 00:25:17,520
there is a definite criticism warranted

696
00:25:20,310 --> 00:25:19,600
of them uh they put themselves out there

697
00:25:25,590 --> 00:25:20,320
as

698
00:25:27,909 --> 00:25:25,600
with uh with the holy spirit and there

699
00:25:29,430 --> 00:25:27,919
for the lord and you know i think if you

700
00:25:31,510 --> 00:25:29,440
if you put yourself up on a pedestal

701
00:25:32,870 --> 00:25:31,520
you'd be prepared to

702
00:25:33,830 --> 00:25:32,880
take some knocks when you're doing the

703
00:25:35,830 --> 00:25:33,840
wrong thing

704
00:25:38,070 --> 00:25:35,840
recently it seems australia's somewhat

705
00:25:40,310 --> 00:25:38,080
secular identity is being challenged on

706
00:25:41,990 --> 00:25:40,320
a variety of fronts what do you think

707
00:25:43,669 --> 00:25:42,000
are some of the big concerns australia

708
00:25:45,510 --> 00:25:43,679
should have about the intersection of

709
00:25:47,669 --> 00:25:45,520
religion and politics

710
00:25:49,430 --> 00:25:47,679
well i mean i don't have any issues with

711
00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:49,440
anyone of any

712
00:25:52,870 --> 00:25:51,360
religion faith or

713
00:25:54,470 --> 00:25:52,880
non-faith

714
00:25:56,710 --> 00:25:54,480
going into politics

715
00:25:59,269 --> 00:25:56,720
attempting to stand as a member uh i

716
00:26:00,950 --> 00:25:59,279
guess i where i start to get concerned

717
00:26:04,710 --> 00:26:00,960
is where

718
00:26:06,149 --> 00:26:04,720
instead of a person's faith or belief

719
00:26:09,430 --> 00:26:06,159
uh

720
00:26:12,630 --> 00:26:09,440
informing their actions i get concerned

721
00:26:15,190 --> 00:26:12,640
when it seems those uh beliefs

722
00:26:16,789 --> 00:26:15,200
my faith seems to dictate actions and

723
00:26:19,190 --> 00:26:16,799
the most recent example i can think of

724
00:26:21,590 --> 00:26:19,200
that is tony abbott and his call for

725
00:26:22,710 --> 00:26:21,600
the bible to be studied in

726
00:26:24,789 --> 00:26:22,720
in school

727
00:26:26,870 --> 00:26:24,799
another area of concern and this has

728
00:26:28,149 --> 00:26:26,880
happened probably as far as i can see

729
00:26:30,470 --> 00:26:28,159
for the last

730
00:26:33,190 --> 00:26:30,480
the last decade in australia uh it's

731
00:26:36,230 --> 00:26:33,200
where uh deference uh or

732
00:26:39,669 --> 00:26:36,240
special sort of significance is given to

733
00:26:42,070 --> 00:26:39,679
to certain religious groups above others

734
00:26:44,470 --> 00:26:42,080
most recently the australian christian

735
00:26:47,029 --> 00:26:44,480
lobby and senator conroy is talking with

736
00:26:48,789 --> 00:26:47,039
them over his release of the

737
00:26:51,669 --> 00:26:48,799
the filtering report

738
00:26:53,750 --> 00:26:51,679
as as to why they get special uh special

739
00:26:55,669 --> 00:26:53,760
significance or special treatment uh on

740
00:26:57,190 --> 00:26:55,679
this year rather than just issuing a

741
00:26:59,909 --> 00:26:57,200
standard sort of release of the report

742
00:27:01,190 --> 00:26:59,919
to all interested stakeholders another

743
00:27:03,990 --> 00:27:01,200
big example

744
00:27:06,310 --> 00:27:04,000
that is concerning to me is

745
00:27:08,950 --> 00:27:06,320
both rudd and before him howard's

746
00:27:10,710 --> 00:27:08,960
addressing of sort of evangelical church

747
00:27:14,470 --> 00:27:10,720
leaders in australia

748
00:27:17,029 --> 00:27:14,480
helped there by by hillsong and also

749
00:27:18,230 --> 00:27:17,039
also previously howard's uh special

750
00:27:20,149 --> 00:27:18,240
treatment of

751
00:27:22,630 --> 00:27:20,159
the exclusive president so they're

752
00:27:24,870 --> 00:27:22,640
they're my sort of main areas of concern

753
00:27:27,830 --> 00:27:24,880
where politics is uh

754
00:27:30,230 --> 00:27:27,840
sort of uh walking too tightly hand in

755
00:27:32,789 --> 00:27:30,240
hand with with religion

756
00:27:34,950 --> 00:27:32,799
other areas of concern of course

757
00:27:36,070 --> 00:27:34,960
when you get uh people like uh cardinal

758
00:27:38,710 --> 00:27:36,080
pell

759
00:27:40,390 --> 00:27:38,720
uh attempting to influence

760
00:27:42,710 --> 00:27:40,400
influence catholic members of parliament

761
00:27:45,110 --> 00:27:42,720
to to vote in a particular way you know

762
00:27:45,909 --> 00:27:45,120
by perhaps threatening or insinuating

763
00:27:46,830 --> 00:27:45,919
that

764
00:27:50,789 --> 00:27:46,840
he might

765
00:27:53,029 --> 00:27:50,799
withdraw certain religious privileges or

766
00:27:55,510 --> 00:27:53,039
acts from them if if they go ahead and

767
00:27:57,190 --> 00:27:55,520
vote a certain way immediately springs

768
00:27:58,549 --> 00:27:57,200
to mind it's

769
00:28:01,990 --> 00:27:58,559
there's new i mean there's always been

770
00:28:04,149 --> 00:28:02,000
an issue as far as i can see with uh

771
00:28:06,710 --> 00:28:04,159
chaplains in schools uh there's there's

772
00:28:07,990 --> 00:28:06,720
actually no no really good evidence

773
00:28:09,669 --> 00:28:08,000
that um

774
00:28:11,750 --> 00:28:09,679
credible evidence that there's any

775
00:28:13,830 --> 00:28:11,760
benefit to having uh chaplains in state

776
00:28:15,909 --> 00:28:13,840
schools and then of course the whole

777
00:28:18,630 --> 00:28:15,919
idea of having religious scripture

778
00:28:21,590 --> 00:28:18,640
classes in state schools is a concern

779
00:28:23,669 --> 00:28:21,600
but they've been around for a relatively

780
00:28:25,110 --> 00:28:23,679
long period of time certainly wouldn't

781
00:28:27,110 --> 00:28:25,120
are all religious

782
00:28:28,310 --> 00:28:27,120
believers with the same brush but

783
00:28:31,110 --> 00:28:28,320
certain religious people that don't

784
00:28:33,110 --> 00:28:31,120
understand the value of having a secular

785
00:28:34,950 --> 00:28:33,120
and by secular i don't mean atheist but

786
00:28:36,950 --> 00:28:34,960
you know a secular

787
00:28:39,110 --> 00:28:36,960
playing field for lack of a of a better

788
00:28:41,590 --> 00:28:39,120
word you've done a little investigation

789
00:28:43,110 --> 00:28:41,600
into how to raise the profile of a blog

790
00:28:44,630 --> 00:28:43,120
do you have any advice for people who

791
00:28:46,950 --> 00:28:44,640
are hoping to make a difference via

792
00:28:49,350 --> 00:28:46,960
online networking or blogging

793
00:28:52,070 --> 00:28:49,360
yeah quite recently i've been attempting

794
00:28:53,590 --> 00:28:52,080
to to raise the profile of

795
00:28:56,470 --> 00:28:53,600
of my blog

796
00:28:59,029 --> 00:28:56,480
i've been using a workbook and put out

797
00:29:01,510 --> 00:28:59,039
by an australian uh gentleman darren

798
00:29:03,669 --> 00:29:01,520
rouse christian and uh pro blogger the

799
00:29:05,590 --> 00:29:03,679
guy makes an astounding amount of money

800
00:29:06,710 --> 00:29:05,600
through blogging the top bloggers in the

801
00:29:07,830 --> 00:29:06,720
world

802
00:29:10,950 --> 00:29:07,840
um

803
00:29:13,029 --> 00:29:10,960
but his workbook to me is is a good sort

804
00:29:15,269 --> 00:29:13,039
of series of exercises and activities

805
00:29:18,310 --> 00:29:15,279
that basically get get you into good

806
00:29:20,710 --> 00:29:18,320
habits for blogging and i think probably

807
00:29:23,269 --> 00:29:20,720
in the uh the science the skeptic and

808
00:29:26,549 --> 00:29:23,279
the atheist community we we're all

809
00:29:28,310 --> 00:29:26,559
reasonably capable um and some of us

810
00:29:30,310 --> 00:29:28,320
more so than others

811
00:29:33,430 --> 00:29:30,320
of writing well and writing good

812
00:29:34,549 --> 00:29:33,440
engaging content i'm not sure how many

813
00:29:36,470 --> 00:29:34,559
of us

814
00:29:38,470 --> 00:29:36,480
actively seek to promote our blogs

815
00:29:41,110 --> 00:29:38,480
perhaps in the same way that commercial

816
00:29:42,149 --> 00:29:41,120
bloggers do and i think perhaps the

817
00:29:43,590 --> 00:29:42,159
message

818
00:29:45,590 --> 00:29:43,600
what we're trying to get across might

819
00:29:47,430 --> 00:29:45,600
suffer in some respects i mean somebody

820
00:29:49,029 --> 00:29:47,440
like pz myers certainly isn't going to

821
00:29:51,110 --> 00:29:49,039
have any trouble

822
00:29:52,630 --> 00:29:51,120
but there are other equally

823
00:29:54,950 --> 00:29:52,640
good writers out there that probably

824
00:29:57,750 --> 00:29:54,960
don't get the uh the level of coverage

825
00:30:01,269 --> 00:29:57,760
that uh that he would and uh you know

826
00:30:03,269 --> 00:30:01,279
their material is just as worthwhile

827
00:30:05,350 --> 00:30:03,279
if not better in some cases so in that

828
00:30:06,789 --> 00:30:05,360
sense yes i've been using

829
00:30:07,909 --> 00:30:06,799
darren rouse's i'm just trying to think

830
00:30:09,750 --> 00:30:07,919
of it off the top of my head i think

831
00:30:10,789 --> 00:30:09,760
it's 31 days to building building a

832
00:30:13,029 --> 00:30:10,799
better blog

833
00:30:15,750 --> 00:30:13,039
and it's not rocket science it's just a

834
00:30:18,389 --> 00:30:15,760
series of activities or habits

835
00:30:20,389 --> 00:30:18,399
or techniques that you can use yeah so

836
00:30:22,310 --> 00:30:20,399
i mean essentially

837
00:30:23,909 --> 00:30:22,320
my investigations are ongoing i had some

838
00:30:25,510 --> 00:30:23,919
real success in in the first couple of

839
00:30:28,070 --> 00:30:25,520
weeks a couple of weeks ago i had a post

840
00:30:30,789 --> 00:30:28,080
that uh went absolutely ballistic tried

841
00:30:32,950 --> 00:30:30,799
the same technique a couple of days ago

842
00:30:34,470 --> 00:30:32,960
and

843
00:30:36,470 --> 00:30:34,480
nowhere near the same sort of result so

844
00:30:38,389 --> 00:30:36,480
it's something that i think requires

845
00:30:40,710 --> 00:30:38,399
aside from just implementing you know

846
00:30:42,630 --> 00:30:40,720
certain techniques or certain habits you

847
00:30:44,630 --> 00:30:42,640
really need to look at your stats look

848
00:30:46,070 --> 00:30:44,640
at your blog look at

849
00:30:47,990 --> 00:30:46,080
you know look at who's looking at you

850
00:30:49,909 --> 00:30:48,000
basically and and try and figure out

851
00:30:52,789 --> 00:30:49,919
some patterns of your own and be

852
00:30:53,669 --> 00:30:52,799
persistent and consistent i'm just

853
00:30:56,789 --> 00:30:53,679
thinking

854
00:30:59,110 --> 00:30:56,799
back to my mercy ministries coverage

855
00:31:00,549 --> 00:30:59,120
which didn't really benefit from the

856
00:31:01,909 --> 00:31:00,559
from blog promotion or anything like

857
00:31:04,870 --> 00:31:01,919
that but

858
00:31:07,269 --> 00:31:04,880
i think benefited from persistence and

859
00:31:10,870 --> 00:31:07,279
and being consistent in in the writing

860
00:31:12,789 --> 00:31:10,880
uh that took probably verging on

861
00:31:14,950 --> 00:31:12,799
coming up to two years two years of

862
00:31:17,029 --> 00:31:14,960
writing about the issue

863
00:31:20,230 --> 00:31:17,039
and it's just chipping away writing

864
00:31:22,310 --> 00:31:20,240
every day and you know writing engaging

865
00:31:25,190 --> 00:31:22,320
relevant information so at the moment

866
00:31:27,510 --> 00:31:25,200
twitter is probably twitter and

867
00:31:29,909 --> 00:31:27,520
submission to reddit probably my best

868
00:31:31,350 --> 00:31:29,919
sources for views in six months time

869
00:31:33,510 --> 00:31:31,360
that should change and i think always

870
00:31:36,070 --> 00:31:33,520
keeping a weather eye out for

871
00:31:38,149 --> 00:31:36,080
the technological changes uh is a good

872
00:31:40,389 --> 00:31:38,159
idea finally congratulations again on

873
00:31:42,549 --> 00:31:40,399
winning the 2009 monty miller free

874
00:31:44,950 --> 00:31:42,559
thought advocacy award what are some of

875
00:31:47,909 --> 00:31:44,960
the goals you have for 2010 yeah thanks

876
00:31:51,750 --> 00:31:47,919
um so yeah that was that was that was

877
00:31:55,509 --> 00:31:51,760
quite a shock as to my goals for 2010

878
00:31:57,190 --> 00:31:55,519
uh to write better perhaps to uh delay

879
00:31:59,350 --> 00:31:57,200
my posting i'm

880
00:32:02,070 --> 00:31:59,360
one of the terrible things about

881
00:32:04,470 --> 00:32:02,080
blogging technology for myself as you

882
00:32:06,070 --> 00:32:04,480
know a passionate writer is that i write

883
00:32:07,509 --> 00:32:06,080
something down and

884
00:32:08,950 --> 00:32:07,519
read through it once or twice think

885
00:32:10,230 --> 00:32:08,960
everything's

886
00:32:11,590 --> 00:32:10,240
edited

887
00:32:13,430 --> 00:32:11,600
perfectly

888
00:32:15,509 --> 00:32:13,440
and then publish it and then only to

889
00:32:18,950 --> 00:32:15,519
realize i've made an absolutely a simple

890
00:32:20,950 --> 00:32:18,960
glaring mistake so i think perhaps

891
00:32:23,430 --> 00:32:20,960
yeah write better and

892
00:32:25,350 --> 00:32:23,440
relax a bit not be so eager to publish

893
00:32:26,789 --> 00:32:25,360
so quickly

894
00:32:30,230 --> 00:32:26,799
i'd like to increase that readership but

895
00:32:32,710 --> 00:32:30,240
also maintain my perspective uh a

896
00:32:35,750 --> 00:32:32,720
gentleman over at bruce over at the

897
00:32:37,990 --> 00:32:35,760
thinkers podium on wordpress uh

898
00:32:40,310 --> 00:32:38,000
mentioned that you know he thought

899
00:32:41,350 --> 00:32:40,320
i had a rather unique take on things and

900
00:32:44,549 --> 00:32:41,360
that

901
00:32:46,789 --> 00:32:44,559
he really appreciated about my blog and

902
00:32:49,430 --> 00:32:46,799
i think that's important that

903
00:32:51,509 --> 00:32:49,440
in in particular for me if i'm

904
00:32:53,430 --> 00:32:51,519
chasing more readership i

905
00:32:55,029 --> 00:32:53,440
you know i don't want to lose what

906
00:32:57,509 --> 00:32:55,039
essentially makes

907
00:32:59,350 --> 00:32:57,519
you know my writing different just

908
00:33:00,870 --> 00:32:59,360
for the sake of

909
00:33:01,990 --> 00:33:00,880
you know having more people see what i

910
00:33:03,830 --> 00:33:02,000
write

911
00:33:05,990 --> 00:33:03,840
two big things i'd like to do this year

912
00:33:08,070 --> 00:33:06,000
if possible and one is attend the global

913
00:33:09,110 --> 00:33:08,080
global latest convention

914
00:33:11,110 --> 00:33:09,120
in melbourne and which i've got the

915
00:33:13,509 --> 00:33:11,120
tickets for plane tickets and convention

916
00:33:16,310 --> 00:33:13,519
tickets uh i'd like to do that just for

917
00:33:18,310 --> 00:33:16,320
networking social reasons but i'd also

918
00:33:19,190 --> 00:33:18,320
like something

919
00:33:21,110 --> 00:33:19,200
uh

920
00:33:23,669 --> 00:33:21,120
big to come out of it something

921
00:33:25,350 --> 00:33:23,679
important to come out of this meeting of

922
00:33:27,750 --> 00:33:25,360
atheists from around the world and

923
00:33:30,070 --> 00:33:27,760
around australia

924
00:33:32,070 --> 00:33:30,080
i'm also hoping to do something with the

925
00:33:34,470 --> 00:33:32,080
group of australian and new zealand

926
00:33:37,190 --> 00:33:34,480
atheist bloggers have some coverage of

927
00:33:38,630 --> 00:33:37,200
the event or some reporting on it

928
00:33:41,590 --> 00:33:38,640
haven't quite made up my mind still

929
00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:41,600
waiting for the the program details to

930
00:33:44,950 --> 00:33:43,600
be sorted out there and see what see

931
00:33:46,549 --> 00:33:44,960
what we might be able to do as a group

932
00:33:49,509 --> 00:33:46,559
of atheist bloggers

933
00:33:50,870 --> 00:33:49,519
in the long term i'd love to get paid

934
00:33:52,789 --> 00:33:50,880
for doing

935
00:33:55,350 --> 00:33:52,799
some sort of writing work

936
00:33:58,310 --> 00:33:55,360
i uh i'm hoping that this will be a big

937
00:34:01,669 --> 00:33:58,320
year for for acs and actually for for

938
00:34:03,269 --> 00:34:01,679
skeptics um in australia with uh tam

939
00:34:04,630 --> 00:34:03,279
later in the year i'd love to be able to

940
00:34:07,190 --> 00:34:04,640
make it to town

941
00:34:08,550 --> 00:34:07,200
it could really kick off uh two areas

942
00:34:11,750 --> 00:34:08,560
that i'm passionate about that being

943
00:34:13,510 --> 00:34:11,760
atheism and uh and skepticism thanks

944
00:34:15,510 --> 00:34:13,520
again sean for joining us

945
00:34:17,270 --> 00:34:15,520
well thanks kyle it's been a pleasure

946
00:34:19,750 --> 00:34:17,280
talking to you and best of luck to

947
00:34:23,349 --> 00:34:19,760
yourself and the skeptic zone and

948
00:34:25,109 --> 00:34:23,359
skeptic zone listers for 2010.

949
00:34:26,629 --> 00:34:25,119
to learn more about shawn's ongoing

950
00:34:43,829 --> 00:34:26,639
adventures head to

951
00:34:48,950 --> 00:34:45,909
this is eugenie scott national center

952
00:34:52,950 --> 00:34:48,960
for science education you can find us at

953
00:34:56,950 --> 00:34:54,710
come see us if you want to know anything

954
00:34:59,510 --> 00:34:56,960
about the creationism and evolution

955
00:35:01,430 --> 00:34:59,520
conflict in the united states or

956
00:35:03,349 --> 00:35:01,440
more is the pity internationally these

957
00:35:06,550 --> 00:35:03,359
days we are clearing house for

958
00:35:08,470 --> 00:35:06,560
information on this vexing but certainly

959
00:35:16,310 --> 00:35:08,480
very interesting problem

960
00:35:27,750 --> 00:35:19,430
join us now for drinking skeptically in

961
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:40,230
kangaroos most things

962
00:35:45,670 --> 00:35:42,630
and welcome to the

963
00:35:48,390 --> 00:35:45,680
think tub think tub think tub i'm with

964
00:35:51,430 --> 00:35:48,400
brian dunny hello hello brian could you

965
00:35:53,990 --> 00:35:51,440
introduce everybody oh boy we've got uh

966
00:35:56,790 --> 00:35:54,000
gus and sarah and lizzy and lisa

967
00:35:58,310 --> 00:35:56,800
hi hi hey what's up

968
00:36:00,550 --> 00:35:58,320
you want full introductions is everyone

969
00:36:02,550 --> 00:36:00,560
embarrassed to use their full name or

970
00:36:04,790 --> 00:36:02,560
i'm not that embarrassed now now this

971
00:36:06,790 --> 00:36:04,800
must be one of the more enjoyable think

972
00:36:08,310 --> 00:36:06,800
tank i've done we're calling it the

973
00:36:10,630 --> 00:36:08,320
think tub because we're all sitting in

974
00:36:12,710 --> 00:36:10,640
brian's hot tub with the microphone

975
00:36:15,030 --> 00:36:12,720
hanging over with on a piece of string

976
00:36:17,349 --> 00:36:15,040
it's very classy it's a pretty good rig

977
00:36:19,589 --> 00:36:17,359
i gotta say it is i'm not at all worried

978
00:36:21,990 --> 00:36:19,599
about the fade of the microphone

979
00:36:24,790 --> 00:36:22,000
this is in fact the famous skeptoid hot

980
00:36:29,670 --> 00:36:26,470
famous are infamous

981
00:36:34,069 --> 00:36:31,670
where many well well-designed

982
00:36:35,510 --> 00:36:34,079
experiments have been performed

983
00:36:37,190 --> 00:36:35,520
you realize there's some people who are

984
00:36:41,750 --> 00:36:37,200
downloading this podcast for the first

985
00:36:46,710 --> 00:36:44,790
those poor poor sods yeah what i always

986
00:36:48,790 --> 00:36:46,720
try to stress in them in the show is

987
00:36:50,069 --> 00:36:48,800
that skeptics like to have fun like

988
00:36:52,390 --> 00:36:50,079
anybody else

989
00:36:54,230 --> 00:36:52,400
parties and and our fun is less guilt

990
00:36:56,069 --> 00:36:54,240
written

991
00:36:58,069 --> 00:36:56,079
that's true we don't have to say hail

992
00:36:59,910 --> 00:36:58,079
mary's afterwards tomorrow morning we do

993
00:37:01,910 --> 00:36:59,920
not have to go to confession oh yes and

994
00:37:03,910 --> 00:37:01,920
we are sipping champagne

995
00:37:05,510 --> 00:37:03,920
i should have been classy cheers and

996
00:37:08,470 --> 00:37:05,520
everyone's naked

997
00:37:10,790 --> 00:37:08,480
except for that part

998
00:37:12,550 --> 00:37:10,800
that part does require confession or

999
00:37:13,829 --> 00:37:12,560
what

1000
00:37:15,589 --> 00:37:13,839
this is this is theater of the

1001
00:37:17,270 --> 00:37:15,599
imagination

1002
00:37:19,270 --> 00:37:17,280
and listeners now are imagining us in

1003
00:37:24,310 --> 00:37:19,280
this hot tub sipping champagne naked yes

1004
00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:26,710
champagne is scantily clad

1005
00:37:30,950 --> 00:37:28,880
well i i had a such a great time tonight

1006
00:37:33,030 --> 00:37:30,960
in the pub i hope everybody did

1007
00:37:34,870 --> 00:37:33,040
it was a nice turnout right it was a

1008
00:37:37,190 --> 00:37:34,880
fabulous turnout it was probably the it

1009
00:37:39,030 --> 00:37:37,200
was certainly the busiest uh uh pub

1010
00:37:40,950 --> 00:37:39,040
night in the skeptics in the oc that

1011
00:37:42,550 --> 00:37:40,960
we've ever had

1012
00:37:44,550 --> 00:37:42,560
we should have people from

1013
00:37:46,870 --> 00:37:44,560
40 50 miles away

1014
00:37:48,829 --> 00:37:46,880
oh at least or or farther how far did

1015
00:37:50,550 --> 00:37:48,839
you come oh a long

1016
00:37:53,829 --> 00:37:50,560
way

1017
00:37:56,310 --> 00:37:53,839
i think i think just just to

1018
00:37:57,750 --> 00:37:56,320
everyone's got this uh you know

1019
00:37:59,030 --> 00:37:57,760
incredible images floating around in

1020
00:38:00,310 --> 00:37:59,040
their head right now it's worth pointing

1021
00:38:01,670 --> 00:38:00,320
out that

1022
00:38:03,750 --> 00:38:01,680
those of us sitting in the hot tub have

1023
00:38:05,349 --> 00:38:03,760
caused huge volumes of water to spill

1024
00:38:07,750 --> 00:38:05,359
out over the edge

1025
00:38:10,790 --> 00:38:07,760
because we're very unsightly people in

1026
00:38:13,670 --> 00:38:10,800
general speak for yourself man

1027
00:38:15,349 --> 00:38:13,680
make us some more water as we

1028
00:38:17,430 --> 00:38:15,359
i think i did that actually can you give

1029
00:38:19,990 --> 00:38:17,440
our listeners any um

1030
00:38:22,790 --> 00:38:20,000
any inside gossip in these sneak peeks

1031
00:38:24,230 --> 00:38:22,800
as to your projects coming up uh my

1032
00:38:25,990 --> 00:38:24,240
project's coming up well when is this

1033
00:38:28,230 --> 00:38:26,000
coming out because it might be old news

1034
00:38:29,910 --> 00:38:28,240
by then oh probably late january

1035
00:38:32,470 --> 00:38:29,920
something like that uh well probably

1036
00:38:33,990 --> 00:38:32,480
about the same time then is um i'm going

1037
00:38:36,150 --> 00:38:34,000
to be doing a

1038
00:38:38,550 --> 00:38:36,160
a full first season of in fact my new

1039
00:38:42,470 --> 00:38:38,560
video podcast

1040
00:38:45,030 --> 00:38:42,480
um i put out three pilot episodes uh oh

1041
00:38:47,030 --> 00:38:45,040
late mid 2009 and i'm going to be doing

1042
00:38:48,390 --> 00:38:47,040
a full season of 13 episodes starting in

1043
00:38:50,470 --> 00:38:48,400
january

1044
00:38:51,670 --> 00:38:50,480
and they're about uh three minutes long

1045
00:38:53,950 --> 00:38:51,680
and probably by the time you hear this

1046
00:38:55,550 --> 00:38:53,960
they should be available at

1047
00:38:59,990 --> 00:38:55,560
infactvideo.com

1048
00:39:01,990 --> 00:39:00,000
domain name for which by the way i was

1049
00:39:03,990 --> 00:39:02,000
searching in fact dot tv and everything

1050
00:39:06,069 --> 00:39:04,000
else was long been taken but oh wow so i

1051
00:39:08,470 --> 00:39:06,079
was searching for infactvideo.com and it

1052
00:39:10,790 --> 00:39:08,480
was taken too and so i was quite upset

1053
00:39:13,030 --> 00:39:10,800
by that and i went to godaddy to do a

1054
00:39:14,790 --> 00:39:13,040
one of those domain purchase things you

1055
00:39:15,910 --> 00:39:14,800
know where you can like bid on it

1056
00:39:18,069 --> 00:39:15,920
and um

1057
00:39:22,630 --> 00:39:18,079
found out that the current owner was

1058
00:39:25,589 --> 00:39:24,230
did you have to call him up and threaten

1059
00:39:27,670 --> 00:39:25,599
him

1060
00:39:29,430 --> 00:39:27,680
i did i had to beat my own ass i dragged

1061
00:39:32,710 --> 00:39:29,440
myself out of the yard

1062
00:39:34,790 --> 00:39:32,720
were you sleep coding or something how i

1063
00:39:36,390 --> 00:39:34,800
don't know i think i probably registered

1064
00:39:39,030 --> 00:39:36,400
it two years ago or something and had

1065
00:39:40,870 --> 00:39:39,040
forgotten all about it yeah

1066
00:39:43,109 --> 00:39:40,880
so that's really exciting it's because i

1067
00:39:45,190 --> 00:39:43,119
really enjoyed the first um

1068
00:39:46,470 --> 00:39:45,200
three you produced and hopefully these

1069
00:39:48,470 --> 00:39:46,480
will be uh

1070
00:39:50,310 --> 00:39:48,480
less less sickening to those who did not

1071
00:39:52,310 --> 00:39:50,320
enjoy the moving background in the first

1072
00:39:54,550 --> 00:39:52,320
three ah the moving background i was

1073
00:39:56,069 --> 00:39:54,560
just thinking about that yes i liked the

1074
00:39:58,230 --> 00:39:56,079
background i didn't i didn't mind it you

1075
00:39:59,990 --> 00:39:58,240
had complaints about that i had quite a

1076
00:40:02,150 --> 00:40:00,000
lot of complaints about that

1077
00:40:03,109 --> 00:40:02,160
i had mostly complaints from from

1078
00:40:05,670 --> 00:40:03,119
viewers

1079
00:40:07,910 --> 00:40:05,680
i i had a lot of directorial feedback

1080
00:40:09,349 --> 00:40:07,920
too from like guys who were actual

1081
00:40:10,390 --> 00:40:09,359
movie directors and people who knew what

1082
00:40:12,470 --> 00:40:10,400
they were doing

1083
00:40:14,870 --> 00:40:12,480
and none of them had any issues with the

1084
00:40:16,390 --> 00:40:14,880
moving background yeah um i mean it

1085
00:40:20,230 --> 00:40:16,400
wasn't racing

1086
00:40:22,870 --> 00:40:20,240
moving

1087
00:40:24,310 --> 00:40:22,880
sickeningly one might say

1088
00:40:25,990 --> 00:40:24,320
the same type of people who can't play

1089
00:40:27,109 --> 00:40:26,000
the first person shoot em up games had

1090
00:40:28,630 --> 00:40:27,119
the same had

1091
00:40:30,069 --> 00:40:28,640
similar problems with my scrolling

1092
00:40:32,069 --> 00:40:30,079
background

1093
00:40:33,990 --> 00:40:32,079
so so that's gone and some other things

1094
00:40:35,510 --> 00:40:34,000
have been changed and what topics can we

1095
00:40:37,190 --> 00:40:35,520
look forward to hearing about or seeing

1096
00:40:39,829 --> 00:40:37,200
about well they're actually they're all

1097
00:40:41,349 --> 00:40:39,839
based on old skeptoid episodes previous

1098
00:40:43,190 --> 00:40:41,359
skeptoid episodes that were some of the

1099
00:40:45,190 --> 00:40:43,200
more popular and universally appealing

1100
00:40:47,829 --> 00:40:45,200
ones so it's not going for the same

1101
00:40:49,910 --> 00:40:47,839
audience as my podcast it's going for

1102
00:40:54,470 --> 00:40:49,920
a a new audience

1103
00:40:57,990 --> 00:40:55,670
you know there's a lot more people who

1104
00:41:00,470 --> 00:40:58,000
watch videos youtube for example i mean

1105
00:41:02,390 --> 00:41:00,480
has an incredibly huge audience by

1106
00:41:04,069 --> 00:41:02,400
itself oh yeah you've got the potential

1107
00:41:05,510 --> 00:41:04,079
to reach a lot more people yeah so

1108
00:41:08,150 --> 00:41:05,520
that's why i'm doing it it's not that

1109
00:41:09,510 --> 00:41:08,160
i'm trying to bring something extra to

1110
00:41:11,030 --> 00:41:09,520
skeptoid listeners or something like

1111
00:41:12,710 --> 00:41:11,040
that it's just trying to go for a new

1112
00:41:13,990 --> 00:41:12,720
audience a new broader audience

1113
00:41:15,589 --> 00:41:14,000
fantastic

1114
00:41:17,589 --> 00:41:15,599
well i'm looking forward to seeing those

1115
00:41:20,550 --> 00:41:17,599
because i've seen your production studio

1116
00:41:24,309 --> 00:41:20,560
and that's impressive it certainly is

1117
00:41:26,150 --> 00:41:24,319
he's winking as he's saying that folks

1118
00:41:31,190 --> 00:41:26,160
you guys listen to brian

1119
00:41:33,670 --> 00:41:32,630
more importantly do you listen to

1120
00:41:37,589 --> 00:41:33,680
richard

1121
00:41:40,390 --> 00:41:37,599
as of three o'clock this afternoon that

1122
00:41:42,630 --> 00:41:40,400
was a smattering of yeses yes i think um

1123
00:41:45,589 --> 00:41:42,640
it was evidenced by people singing his

1124
00:41:48,150 --> 00:41:45,599
intro tune at the pub tonight yeah

1125
00:41:50,309 --> 00:41:48,160
definitely best intro ever in this in

1126
00:41:51,430 --> 00:41:50,319
the podcast world can we hear a round of

1127
00:41:52,790 --> 00:41:51,440
that now please

1128
00:41:54,390 --> 00:41:52,800
that was people who were not coming to

1129
00:41:56,470 --> 00:41:54,400
the tub

1130
00:41:58,550 --> 00:41:56,480
in the car park i heard a rendition of

1131
00:41:59,750 --> 00:41:58,560
the skeptics i thought i heard that too

1132
00:42:04,390 --> 00:41:59,760
but uh

1133
00:42:08,390 --> 00:42:06,470
now you you three people over here who

1134
00:42:10,390 --> 00:42:08,400
i'm meeting for the first time

1135
00:42:12,470 --> 00:42:10,400
what's your interest in what we do the

1136
00:42:14,710 --> 00:42:12,480
the skeptical line

1137
00:42:17,589 --> 00:42:14,720
i think i i knew i was a skeptic before

1138
00:42:19,349 --> 00:42:17,599
i had a word for it in in that i i

1139
00:42:21,190 --> 00:42:19,359
understood that i didn't really believe

1140
00:42:22,950 --> 00:42:21,200
in the supernatural

1141
00:42:25,589 --> 00:42:22,960
per se yeah but

1142
00:42:26,710 --> 00:42:25,599
no one i ever articulated that to

1143
00:42:27,910 --> 00:42:26,720
really understood that and they're like

1144
00:42:29,190 --> 00:42:27,920
so you don't believe in ghosts and i was

1145
00:42:30,309 --> 00:42:29,200
like well yeah i guess i don't believe

1146
00:42:31,430 --> 00:42:30,319
in ghosts and i said so you don't

1147
00:42:32,950 --> 00:42:31,440
believe in like

1148
00:42:35,670 --> 00:42:32,960
you know crystal healing either and i

1149
00:42:37,670 --> 00:42:35,680
said no i guess i don't and then after a

1150
00:42:40,150 --> 00:42:37,680
while until i you know

1151
00:42:41,589 --> 00:42:40,160
by the time i was like 25 or 26 i

1152
00:42:43,589 --> 00:42:41,599
finally figured out

1153
00:42:46,470 --> 00:42:43,599
that what i what i believe in if you

1154
00:42:48,390 --> 00:42:46,480
want to use that word is is what i

1155
00:42:50,710 --> 00:42:48,400
can basically say that i have solid

1156
00:42:53,270 --> 00:42:50,720
evidence for or that someone can give me

1157
00:42:55,190 --> 00:42:53,280
solid evidence for right so

1158
00:42:58,390 --> 00:42:55,200
and then somehow i guess through i just

1159
00:43:00,390 --> 00:42:58,400
sort of ran across skeptoid randomly and

1160
00:43:02,870 --> 00:43:00,400
i was like these people

1161
00:43:05,589 --> 00:43:02,880
understand what what i

1162
00:43:07,270 --> 00:43:05,599
they think the way i think yeah and yes

1163
00:43:09,190 --> 00:43:07,280
it in a way it doesn't matter what

1164
00:43:11,030 --> 00:43:09,200
conclusions they draw it just matters

1165
00:43:12,710 --> 00:43:11,040
that they use the same sort of processes

1166
00:43:14,790 --> 00:43:12,720
to get there and i'm not a scientist i

1167
00:43:15,910 --> 00:43:14,800
have no science background i'm an artist

1168
00:43:17,510 --> 00:43:15,920
but uh

1169
00:43:19,589 --> 00:43:17,520
what was important to me was that they

1170
00:43:21,030 --> 00:43:19,599
they sort of

1171
00:43:23,109 --> 00:43:21,040
really try and think about what what

1172
00:43:25,430 --> 00:43:23,119
people tell them and try and

1173
00:43:27,430 --> 00:43:25,440
sort of crank up their detector

1174
00:43:29,589 --> 00:43:27,440
um in terms of like

1175
00:43:32,150 --> 00:43:29,599
okay you know that sounds interesting

1176
00:43:33,829 --> 00:43:32,160
but why don't we try and prove it or or

1177
00:43:35,670 --> 00:43:33,839
what you tell me sounds great but let's

1178
00:43:37,430 --> 00:43:35,680
see if there's any evidence for it

1179
00:43:39,910 --> 00:43:37,440
um and do you think i didn't have the

1180
00:43:41,910 --> 00:43:39,920
word skeptic for it until probably like

1181
00:43:44,470 --> 00:43:41,920
two years ago do you find the topics

1182
00:43:46,710 --> 00:43:44,480
really interesting i do yeah any pretty

1183
00:43:49,030 --> 00:43:46,720
much any topic um

1184
00:43:50,950 --> 00:43:49,040
i mean my my real sort of

1185
00:43:53,270 --> 00:43:50,960
my passion is art but when i when i

1186
00:43:55,270 --> 00:43:53,280
think about science what really like

1187
00:43:56,870 --> 00:43:55,280
fills me with a kind of

1188
00:43:59,589 --> 00:43:56,880
religious and i use that in quotation

1189
00:44:01,750 --> 00:43:59,599
marks religious awe is astronomy so

1190
00:44:03,990 --> 00:44:01,760
anytime i learn anything about astronomy

1191
00:44:06,550 --> 00:44:04,000
that fills me with a kind of like

1192
00:44:08,470 --> 00:44:06,560
you know existential

1193
00:44:11,109 --> 00:44:08,480
dread slash

1194
00:44:12,710 --> 00:44:11,119
feel a feeling of amazement and and i

1195
00:44:14,630 --> 00:44:12,720
think dread and amazement kind of go

1196
00:44:17,589 --> 00:44:14,640
hand in hand i think that carl sagan

1197
00:44:19,910 --> 00:44:17,599
called it uh numbness yeah the numinous

1198
00:44:22,150 --> 00:44:19,920
absolutely um and reading contact when i

1199
00:44:24,150 --> 00:44:22,160
was in high school was absolutely

1200
00:44:26,790 --> 00:44:24,160
groundbreaking you've seen cosmos this

1201
00:44:28,630 --> 00:44:26,800
series yes and i read cosmos uh probably

1202
00:44:30,470 --> 00:44:28,640
last year i finally read the book

1203
00:44:31,829 --> 00:44:30,480
and i was accused of being a dork which

1204
00:44:33,670 --> 00:44:31,839
is absolutely true

1205
00:44:35,750 --> 00:44:33,680
and uh i live the nerds

1206
00:44:37,589 --> 00:44:35,760
amen brother oh man they call me

1207
00:44:40,309 --> 00:44:37,599
anything they like if i watch cosmos i

1208
00:44:41,670 --> 00:44:40,319
don't care yeah it does yeah exactly um

1209
00:44:43,190 --> 00:44:41,680
i forget what my point was but it really

1210
00:44:44,230 --> 00:44:43,200
doesn't matter someone handed me

1211
00:44:45,430 --> 00:44:44,240
champagne a while ago but it's

1212
00:44:47,589 --> 00:44:45,440
interesting you should mention that

1213
00:44:49,910 --> 00:44:47,599
because if i just look up into the sky

1214
00:44:53,030 --> 00:44:49,920
right now over my shoulder here i can

1215
00:44:56,390 --> 00:44:53,040
see orion the constellation of orion

1216
00:45:00,630 --> 00:44:58,230
which is pretty weird yeah

1217
00:45:03,190 --> 00:45:00,640
there it is upside down it is uh it is

1218
00:45:05,750 --> 00:45:03,200
summer right now in australia yeah

1219
00:45:07,750 --> 00:45:05,760
i think i can see mars

1220
00:45:09,670 --> 00:45:07,760
just up a little bit i can confirm that

1221
00:45:11,990 --> 00:45:09,680
later on with my handy iphone app

1222
00:45:13,270 --> 00:45:12,000
cassiopeia is over there oh yeah

1223
00:45:14,790 --> 00:45:13,280
the w

1224
00:45:17,190 --> 00:45:14,800
i think the reason they appear upside

1225
00:45:21,190 --> 00:45:17,200
down is that nibiru must have passed

1226
00:45:24,790 --> 00:45:22,950
isn't he a little early

1227
00:45:28,390 --> 00:45:24,800
i know late he's late didn't he

1228
00:45:31,510 --> 00:45:28,400
2003 wasn't it for the original oh boy

1229
00:45:33,829 --> 00:45:31,520
no it's b it's a starry night and i can

1230
00:45:35,190 --> 00:45:33,839
i can see the the the constellations i

1231
00:45:36,790 --> 00:45:35,200
know but they're upside down so that's

1232
00:45:38,390 --> 00:45:36,800
really interesting oh there's the um

1233
00:45:39,910 --> 00:45:38,400
pleiades over there

1234
00:45:44,069 --> 00:45:39,920
see that one do you know that the the

1235
00:45:44,079 --> 00:45:48,710
no kidding

1236
00:45:52,550 --> 00:45:50,230
the first six years i could drive i

1237
00:45:53,990 --> 00:45:52,560
drove a subaru and uh i finally learned

1238
00:45:55,510 --> 00:45:54,000
what the pleiades were and that it was

1239
00:45:57,589 --> 00:45:55,520
the logo and it's

1240
00:46:05,270 --> 00:45:57,599
really very exciting to it to a young

1241
00:46:08,790 --> 00:46:06,790
pretty much any disaster that happens is

1242
00:46:11,990 --> 00:46:08,800
my fault

1243
00:46:14,230 --> 00:46:12,000
so all of us being barefoot

1244
00:46:16,069 --> 00:46:14,240
oh glass and bare feet what could go

1245
00:46:17,670 --> 00:46:16,079
wrong nothing

1246
00:46:19,910 --> 00:46:17,680
you've seen people walking over glass

1247
00:46:21,829 --> 00:46:19,920
before haven't you i thought it was hot

1248
00:46:23,510 --> 00:46:21,839
coals yeah you can walk out for glass

1249
00:46:25,109 --> 00:46:23,520
but i wouldn't recommend it hot glass

1250
00:46:27,589 --> 00:46:25,119
bowls of glass

1251
00:46:29,270 --> 00:46:27,599
we'll find out we'll be right behind you

1252
00:46:31,430 --> 00:46:29,280
yeah go ahead richard

1253
00:46:32,790 --> 00:46:31,440
thank you now what about you

1254
00:46:35,910 --> 00:46:32,800
um

1255
00:46:38,630 --> 00:46:35,920
i think what started me into the idea of

1256
00:46:41,030 --> 00:46:38,640
critical thinking particularly was um i

1257
00:46:42,550 --> 00:46:41,040
worked as a research assistant on people

1258
00:46:44,710 --> 00:46:42,560
um working

1259
00:46:47,109 --> 00:46:44,720
on an idea of invisible or unidentified

1260
00:46:49,270 --> 00:46:47,119
skin parasites which kind of brought to

1261
00:46:51,190 --> 00:46:49,280
the surface people who um

1262
00:46:53,829 --> 00:46:51,200
had kind of a some people while some

1263
00:46:56,150 --> 00:46:53,839
people did have skin parasites some

1264
00:46:58,790 --> 00:46:56,160
individuals had a persistent unshakable

1265
00:46:59,670 --> 00:46:58,800
belief that um insects were inside their

1266
00:47:01,750 --> 00:46:59,680
skin

1267
00:47:03,349 --> 00:47:01,760
to the contrary to persistent evidence

1268
00:47:05,109 --> 00:47:03,359
that otherwise

1269
00:47:06,710 --> 00:47:05,119
and it was um you know and like

1270
00:47:07,670 --> 00:47:06,720
experiencing their suffering you know

1271
00:47:09,990 --> 00:47:07,680
and i didn't really have words for

1272
00:47:12,150 --> 00:47:10,000
understanding that concept of critical

1273
00:47:14,790 --> 00:47:12,160
thinking and how people perceive and

1274
00:47:17,349 --> 00:47:14,800
come to what is true for them and so

1275
00:47:19,829 --> 00:47:17,359
that was very um very interesting and

1276
00:47:21,349 --> 00:47:19,839
very exciting and confusing and learning

1277
00:47:23,270 --> 00:47:21,359
about skepticism and it's thought about

1278
00:47:24,390 --> 00:47:23,280
how people attain knowledge was very

1279
00:47:26,390 --> 00:47:24,400
important for

1280
00:47:28,550 --> 00:47:26,400
my work therein and now that i'm working

1281
00:47:30,630 --> 00:47:28,560
on my doctorate in clinical psychology

1282
00:47:32,790 --> 00:47:30,640
it's i think very relevant for me to

1283
00:47:34,470 --> 00:47:32,800
understand how people the individuals i

1284
00:47:36,790 --> 00:47:34,480
work with come to their reality and

1285
00:47:38,630 --> 00:47:36,800
their truths and um

1286
00:47:40,950 --> 00:47:38,640
it's helpful as a cognitive behavioral

1287
00:47:43,510 --> 00:47:40,960
therapist to um

1288
00:47:44,630 --> 00:47:43,520
um find dissonance with people's beliefs

1289
00:47:47,030 --> 00:47:44,640
and how they come to believe what they

1290
00:47:49,670 --> 00:47:47,040
believe is very helpful for therapy to

1291
00:47:51,190 --> 00:47:49,680
be skeptical in my experience this is

1292
00:47:52,470 --> 00:47:51,200
very interesting you should

1293
00:47:54,550 --> 00:47:52,480
raise these sort of topics because we've

1294
00:47:56,950 --> 00:47:54,560
been discussing this today brian

1295
00:47:58,790 --> 00:47:56,960
the way people convince themselves into

1296
00:48:00,390 --> 00:47:58,800
believing things yeah and i was

1297
00:48:02,230 --> 00:48:00,400
discussing the feedback they get the

1298
00:48:04,550 --> 00:48:02,240
positive feedback with the kinesiology

1299
00:48:06,390 --> 00:48:04,560
for example but i've seen this with with

1300
00:48:08,550 --> 00:48:06,400
all sorts of people from astrologers to

1301
00:48:10,710 --> 00:48:08,560
psychics to all sorts of people well as

1302
00:48:11,750 --> 00:48:10,720
a reformed hypochondriac i can say that

1303
00:48:13,910 --> 00:48:11,760
uh

1304
00:48:16,630 --> 00:48:13,920
what's amazing is is that you can think

1305
00:48:19,270 --> 00:48:16,640
critically about almost any other topic

1306
00:48:20,630 --> 00:48:19,280
besides what you yourself have convinced

1307
00:48:22,390 --> 00:48:20,640
to be true i mean

1308
00:48:24,630 --> 00:48:22,400
i i was an atheist by the time i was

1309
00:48:27,910 --> 00:48:24,640
around 13 so i didn't think of god but i

1310
00:48:29,990 --> 00:48:27,920
was convinced convinced at age 19 that i

1311
00:48:31,030 --> 00:48:30,000
had a brain tumor that i was dying and

1312
00:48:37,030 --> 00:48:31,040
any

1313
00:48:39,349 --> 00:48:37,040
tumor and by the time i was about around

1314
00:48:41,270 --> 00:48:39,359
22 i realized like okay no i'm probably

1315
00:48:43,670 --> 00:48:41,280
not dying of a brain tumor but it's

1316
00:48:45,670 --> 00:48:43,680
amazing that it took me three years to

1317
00:48:47,750 --> 00:48:45,680
to figure out

1318
00:48:49,829 --> 00:48:47,760
that the the symptoms that i thought

1319
00:48:52,069 --> 00:48:49,839
were true were actually false

1320
00:48:53,030 --> 00:48:52,079
and the the things that i thought were

1321
00:48:55,190 --> 00:48:53,040
were

1322
00:48:57,270 --> 00:48:55,200
you know just i mean i it was literally

1323
00:49:00,230 --> 00:48:57,280
the idea of like you know the false

1324
00:49:01,750 --> 00:49:00,240
positives and remembering what

1325
00:49:03,109 --> 00:49:01,760
exactly confirmation bias remembering

1326
00:49:05,670 --> 00:49:03,119
what was true and what was versus what

1327
00:49:06,950 --> 00:49:05,680
was false yeah and really and it was you

1328
00:49:09,430 --> 00:49:06,960
know what i learned later was really a

1329
00:49:11,670 --> 00:49:09,440
symptom of of like a poor body image

1330
00:49:13,349 --> 00:49:11,680
like i figured that my body was

1331
00:49:15,109 --> 00:49:13,359
something wrong with my body not the way

1332
00:49:16,390 --> 00:49:15,119
it looked but the way it was you know

1333
00:49:17,349 --> 00:49:16,400
health-wise

1334
00:49:18,950 --> 00:49:17,359
and

1335
00:49:21,030 --> 00:49:18,960
i was willing to think critically about

1336
00:49:22,470 --> 00:49:21,040
god about jesus about religion about

1337
00:49:24,630 --> 00:49:22,480
crystal healing about anything you'd

1338
00:49:26,069 --> 00:49:24,640
give me except for my own body and i was

1339
00:49:27,910 --> 00:49:26,079
convinced that something was wrong with

1340
00:49:30,549 --> 00:49:27,920
my own body and it actually

1341
00:49:33,109 --> 00:49:30,559
turned out not to be so it's amazing how

1342
00:49:34,950 --> 00:49:33,119
individual people can be skeptical about

1343
00:49:38,230 --> 00:49:34,960
almost anything except that they're

1344
00:49:40,470 --> 00:49:38,240
except their own personal sort of

1345
00:49:41,750 --> 00:49:40,480
cow exactly their own sacred cows even

1346
00:49:45,349 --> 00:49:41,760
if it's a negative thing even if it's

1347
00:49:47,510 --> 00:49:45,359
something they think is harming them now

1348
00:49:50,150 --> 00:49:47,520
it's a really good point because i often

1349
00:49:51,270 --> 00:49:50,160
wonder if i'm the same

1350
00:49:53,430 --> 00:49:51,280
in what way

1351
00:49:55,270 --> 00:49:53,440
did i have something that i have a block

1352
00:49:57,030 --> 00:49:55,280
about yeah

1353
00:49:59,190 --> 00:49:57,040
and why wouldn't i be i'm human like

1354
00:50:00,630 --> 00:49:59,200
everybody else and it's up for other

1355
00:50:02,630 --> 00:50:00,640
people to tell me what it is and then

1356
00:50:03,750 --> 00:50:02,640
for me to go oh no that's silly

1357
00:50:06,470 --> 00:50:03,760
yeah you know

1358
00:50:08,150 --> 00:50:06,480
well i think part of it i mean i i

1359
00:50:11,030 --> 00:50:08,160
as i said i was a skeptic even before i

1360
00:50:12,790 --> 00:50:11,040
had the word for it so i had had read

1361
00:50:15,349 --> 00:50:12,800
about people dismissing their own

1362
00:50:17,910 --> 00:50:15,359
symptoms and then having it turn out to

1363
00:50:18,950 --> 00:50:17,920
be real so all i could think was like

1364
00:50:20,230 --> 00:50:18,960
and then they have the same thing

1365
00:50:21,589 --> 00:50:20,240
happens to me like i don't like to fly

1366
00:50:23,589 --> 00:50:21,599
but i do it on a regular basis because

1367
00:50:25,190 --> 00:50:23,599
my family lives 3000 miles away so i go

1368
00:50:26,470 --> 00:50:25,200
at least twice a year to go visit them

1369
00:50:27,750 --> 00:50:26,480
and i always think if i'm missing a

1370
00:50:29,190 --> 00:50:27,760
flight or i'm trying desperately to

1371
00:50:31,349 --> 00:50:29,200
catch that last flight out to the east

1372
00:50:33,270 --> 00:50:31,359
coast like oh my god am i desperately

1373
00:50:36,309 --> 00:50:33,280
trying to catch the death flight

1374
00:50:37,990 --> 00:50:36,319
and or am i desperately convincing

1375
00:50:39,270 --> 00:50:38,000
myself that i'm healthy when in fact i

1376
00:50:42,309 --> 00:50:39,280
am really sick

1377
00:50:43,750 --> 00:50:42,319
and i mean you know the the human brain

1378
00:50:45,270 --> 00:50:43,760
i love it i think it's it's one of the

1379
00:50:47,349 --> 00:50:45,280
most fascinating

1380
00:50:50,069 --> 00:50:47,359
objects ever created

1381
00:50:52,790 --> 00:50:50,079
at the same time it it totally screws me

1382
00:50:55,990 --> 00:50:52,800
up on a regular basis it's

1383
00:50:57,750 --> 00:50:56,000
you know i i think myself out of

1384
00:50:59,750 --> 00:50:57,760
trying new things sometimes and then i

1385
00:51:01,510 --> 00:50:59,760
think myself into trying crazy things

1386
00:51:03,030 --> 00:51:01,520
and what i have to work on convincing

1387
00:51:05,030 --> 00:51:03,040
myself and i think most humans have to

1388
00:51:06,230 --> 00:51:05,040
work on convincing themselves

1389
00:51:08,390 --> 00:51:06,240
is that

1390
00:51:09,750 --> 00:51:08,400
your brain will lead you astray

1391
00:51:11,030 --> 00:51:09,760
and sometimes

1392
00:51:13,430 --> 00:51:11,040
if if you

1393
00:51:15,910 --> 00:51:13,440
try and research how it works you can

1394
00:51:17,589 --> 00:51:15,920
override those those systems

1395
00:51:19,430 --> 00:51:17,599
i think that goes to show how your mind

1396
00:51:21,430 --> 00:51:19,440
is or your brain is like a meaning

1397
00:51:22,790 --> 00:51:21,440
making machine yes and how you're trying

1398
00:51:24,950 --> 00:51:22,800
to make meaning out of all these things

1399
00:51:27,349 --> 00:51:24,960
and how it serves you so seeking which

1400
00:51:28,710 --> 00:51:27,359
makes the process

1401
00:51:30,710 --> 00:51:28,720
really difficult especially in

1402
00:51:32,470 --> 00:51:30,720
self-reflection well the discipline of

1403
00:51:33,430 --> 00:51:32,480
it i think is what makes the discipline

1404
00:51:35,750 --> 00:51:33,440
so

1405
00:51:38,309 --> 00:51:35,760
important yeah well you can't pick it up

1406
00:51:40,150 --> 00:51:38,319
either overnight no it's it's i think

1407
00:51:41,270 --> 00:51:40,160
it's a lifelong process honestly

1408
00:51:43,430 --> 00:51:41,280
oh yeah i don't know if you guys have a

1409
00:51:44,630 --> 00:51:43,440
time i learned all about wikipedia okay

1410
00:51:46,069 --> 00:51:44,640
well yeah

1411
00:51:57,670 --> 00:51:46,079
but yeah i learned all about it on

1412
00:52:01,589 --> 00:51:59,270
as i was telling you richard earlier

1413
00:52:03,190 --> 00:52:01,599
today um most of

1414
00:52:05,510 --> 00:52:03,200
probably the probably the whole first

1415
00:52:07,270 --> 00:52:05,520
two years of skeptoid i would

1416
00:52:09,910 --> 00:52:07,280
gladly throw away

1417
00:52:11,589 --> 00:52:09,920
because i would do them all what i think

1418
00:52:13,109 --> 00:52:11,599
is a lot better now

1419
00:52:14,390 --> 00:52:13,119
and i'm sure that two years from now

1420
00:52:16,390 --> 00:52:14,400
i'll be saying the same thing about the

1421
00:52:17,990 --> 00:52:16,400
shows i'm doing possibly today possibly

1422
00:52:19,589 --> 00:52:18,000
don't be surprised if there's a lot of

1423
00:52:21,670 --> 00:52:19,599
stuff that that you think you'd look

1424
00:52:23,750 --> 00:52:21,680
back on and say no that's good i'm happy

1425
00:52:25,510 --> 00:52:23,760
with that yeah some of it but i mean i i

1426
00:52:27,030 --> 00:52:25,520
when i go back and and you know read the

1427
00:52:29,430 --> 00:52:27,040
transcripts or listen to the old ones i

1428
00:52:31,190 --> 00:52:29,440
know that you know i was guilty of some

1429
00:52:32,790 --> 00:52:31,200
a lot of the same things that i'm trying

1430
00:52:34,630 --> 00:52:32,800
to do something about now well you're

1431
00:52:36,710 --> 00:52:34,640
learning yeah that's true of almost

1432
00:52:39,349 --> 00:52:36,720
anything you pursue i mean i i as an

1433
00:52:41,190 --> 00:52:39,359
artist which i really a term i kind of

1434
00:52:43,190 --> 00:52:41,200
get grossed out by but it

1435
00:52:44,950 --> 00:52:43,200
reluctantly has been applied to me so

1436
00:52:47,670 --> 00:52:44,960
i'll own it

1437
00:52:50,630 --> 00:52:47,680
she draws lockheed p-38 yeah shut up

1438
00:52:52,870 --> 00:52:50,640
about the p-38 my god um

1439
00:52:55,030 --> 00:52:52,880
so like two years ago

1440
00:52:56,309 --> 00:52:55,040
the stuff i was drawing was was absolute

1441
00:52:58,230 --> 00:52:56,319
crap

1442
00:53:00,150 --> 00:52:58,240
and you know but i thought it was great

1443
00:53:02,710 --> 00:53:00,160
at the time and the stuff i think is

1444
00:53:04,950 --> 00:53:02,720
great now i'll probably think is is crap

1445
00:53:07,430 --> 00:53:04,960
in two years but

1446
00:53:09,190 --> 00:53:07,440
that's i mean what's the great the gift

1447
00:53:12,230 --> 00:53:09,200
about the human brain which is why you

1448
00:53:14,309 --> 00:53:12,240
know i think i'll hang on to mine

1449
00:53:16,309 --> 00:53:14,319
is that and not have a tumor after all i

1450
00:53:18,069 --> 00:53:16,319
don't think so okay it turns out i'm

1451
00:53:20,470 --> 00:53:18,079
pretty healthy um

1452
00:53:22,950 --> 00:53:20,480
is that it it's able to to learn from

1453
00:53:25,270 --> 00:53:22,960
itself in that we think and there's

1454
00:53:27,270 --> 00:53:25,280
there's conclusions we drew it's capable

1455
00:53:28,710 --> 00:53:27,280
it's some some it's capable not it

1456
00:53:30,150 --> 00:53:28,720
doesn't always happen

1457
00:53:31,670 --> 00:53:30,160
well there's conclusions i drew when i

1458
00:53:33,510 --> 00:53:31,680
was 12 and when i was 15 and when i was

1459
00:53:36,390 --> 00:53:33,520
18 and when i was 25

1460
00:53:39,030 --> 00:53:36,400
that sound ridiculous to me now and at

1461
00:53:40,390 --> 00:53:39,040
age 28 you know i'm drawing conclusions

1462
00:53:43,109 --> 00:53:40,400
that will probably seem ridiculous at

1463
00:53:44,470 --> 00:53:43,119
35. but i'm always able to look back at

1464
00:53:45,910 --> 00:53:44,480
those conclusions and see what was

1465
00:53:48,470 --> 00:53:45,920
correct about them and what was wrong

1466
00:53:50,069 --> 00:53:48,480
about them well i think most skeptics

1467
00:53:52,069 --> 00:53:50,079
and and most people who work really hard

1468
00:53:53,270 --> 00:53:52,079
thinking about that would agree with me

1469
00:53:55,270 --> 00:53:53,280
well and i think that what we've all

1470
00:53:57,430 --> 00:53:55,280
been talking about is that

1471
00:53:58,710 --> 00:53:57,440
our brain is able to change into shift

1472
00:54:01,510 --> 00:53:58,720
and to grow

1473
00:54:03,430 --> 00:54:01,520
i'm an artist too and i look back on my

1474
00:54:05,670 --> 00:54:03,440
quilt making and there's stuff that i do

1475
00:54:07,829 --> 00:54:05,680
not like the way i did

1476
00:54:09,670 --> 00:54:07,839
but at the time it was good and so same

1477
00:54:10,390 --> 00:54:09,680
thing you know i grew up my dad is a

1478
00:54:12,390 --> 00:54:10,400
physicist

1479
00:54:14,549 --> 00:54:12,400
i questions a lot and

1480
00:54:16,390 --> 00:54:14,559
and i have grown since then

1481
00:54:17,510 --> 00:54:16,400
and so i think that what we're saying is

1482
00:54:19,270 --> 00:54:17,520
all the same thing we're growing and

1483
00:54:20,549 --> 00:54:19,280
changing constantly we always look back

1484
00:54:22,950 --> 00:54:20,559
and say i could have would have should

1485
00:54:24,230 --> 00:54:22,960
have but now i'm going to which is so

1486
00:54:25,510 --> 00:54:24,240
interesting because as someone who's

1487
00:54:27,829 --> 00:54:25,520
seen your quilt says someone who's seen

1488
00:54:30,309 --> 00:54:27,839
your art at least on facebook um i'm

1489
00:54:31,750 --> 00:54:30,319
like oh wow that's really great and

1490
00:54:33,190 --> 00:54:31,760
you know and i'd probably two years from

1491
00:54:35,030 --> 00:54:33,200
now i would think that's really great

1492
00:54:36,630 --> 00:54:35,040
but i would say

1493
00:54:38,470 --> 00:54:36,640
but i would see you interacting with

1494
00:54:40,150 --> 00:54:38,480
with a crazy person as a clinical

1495
00:54:41,670 --> 00:54:40,160
psychologist and i'd be like how the

1496
00:54:44,150 --> 00:54:41,680
hell does she do that and what do you

1497
00:54:45,750 --> 00:54:44,160
think right now

1498
00:54:47,589 --> 00:54:45,760
there is that no we don't use the term

1499
00:54:50,309 --> 00:54:47,599
crazy person anymore i'm sorry what do

1500
00:54:53,589 --> 00:54:52,150
what is that is that an australian word

1501
00:54:55,270 --> 00:54:53,599
yeah

1502
00:54:57,030 --> 00:54:55,280
idiot brian and i were having this

1503
00:54:58,390 --> 00:54:57,040
discussion today and our australian

1504
00:54:59,990 --> 00:54:58,400
listeners will appreciate this but how

1505
00:55:01,430 --> 00:55:00,000
many words we have in australia which

1506
00:55:02,870 --> 00:55:01,440
mean idiot

1507
00:55:04,950 --> 00:55:02,880
that's when they came up any language

1508
00:55:07,430 --> 00:55:04,960
that happened

1509
00:55:09,510 --> 00:55:07,440
bogan mug what was some of the other

1510
00:55:11,990 --> 00:55:09,520
ones i i don't know do they all have

1511
00:55:13,670 --> 00:55:12,000
their ears um they're all suddenly

1512
00:55:15,430 --> 00:55:13,680
they're slightly yeah they're they're

1513
00:55:17,750 --> 00:55:15,440
shades of videos brilliant yeah

1514
00:55:19,589 --> 00:55:17,760
absolutely wow they sound much cuter and

1515
00:55:21,510 --> 00:55:19,599
yeah yeah well it's interesting because

1516
00:55:23,430 --> 00:55:21,520
you use the word yankee in your podcast

1517
00:55:24,710 --> 00:55:23,440
announcing this particular event and

1518
00:55:27,430 --> 00:55:24,720
what's what's funny to me is that from

1519
00:55:29,670 --> 00:55:27,440
the east coast northeast area a yankee

1520
00:55:31,190 --> 00:55:29,680
is from and from the northeast yeah

1521
00:55:33,750 --> 00:55:31,200
but to an australian but to an

1522
00:55:35,430 --> 00:55:33,760
australian exactly yank

1523
00:55:37,030 --> 00:55:35,440
any american you call someone from

1524
00:55:39,030 --> 00:55:37,040
georgia yankee and you might want to

1525
00:55:41,670 --> 00:55:39,040
leave the room you might get your ass

1526
00:55:45,349 --> 00:55:43,190
yeah and just for clarification no

1527
00:55:47,430 --> 00:55:45,359
psychology does not call people crazy

1528
00:55:48,870 --> 00:55:47,440
sorry i'm an artist what is the word i

1529
00:55:51,270 --> 00:55:48,880
don't think you would ev um i mean these

1530
00:55:53,190 --> 00:55:51,280
people have atypical no not even because

1531
00:55:54,870 --> 00:55:53,200
people have different issues

1532
00:55:56,549 --> 00:55:54,880
yeah issues so thinking you have a tumor

1533
00:55:58,230 --> 00:55:56,559
when you're 19. that's an issue man it's

1534
00:55:59,990 --> 00:55:58,240
an issue that's an issue

1535
00:56:01,670 --> 00:56:00,000
it's cool differently advantage

1536
00:56:09,510 --> 00:56:01,680
differently

1537
00:56:10,390 --> 00:56:09,520
okay i prefer whacked out

1538
00:56:12,470 --> 00:56:10,400
now

1539
00:56:16,150 --> 00:56:12,480
how did you come across silva

1540
00:56:17,990 --> 00:56:16,160
um well i grew up catholic and i still

1541
00:56:20,230 --> 00:56:18,000
kind of consider myself ethnically

1542
00:56:21,750 --> 00:56:20,240
catholic and culturally catholic

1543
00:56:23,829 --> 00:56:21,760
culturally catholic yeah it's a better

1544
00:56:26,470 --> 00:56:23,839
term i understand um

1545
00:56:28,710 --> 00:56:26,480
but i was also very much into science

1546
00:56:31,589 --> 00:56:28,720
and um as

1547
00:56:34,390 --> 00:56:31,599
i progressed through that field i'm now

1548
00:56:36,950 --> 00:56:34,400
um trying in the process of getting my

1549
00:56:37,990 --> 00:56:36,960
doctorate in molecular biology

1550
00:56:40,230 --> 00:56:38,000
um

1551
00:56:46,390 --> 00:56:42,630
the age of the earth

1552
00:56:47,270 --> 00:56:46,400
came into play oh yeah wow evolution and

1553
00:56:51,270 --> 00:56:47,280
many

1554
00:56:53,510 --> 00:56:51,280
that great book as

1555
00:56:56,390 --> 00:56:53,520
truth just

1556
00:56:59,589 --> 00:56:56,400
oh no that one no 42 is still true

1557
00:57:03,430 --> 00:56:59,599
i was worried um the other book uh

1558
00:57:05,829 --> 00:57:03,440
seemed patently at odds with um reality

1559
00:57:07,589 --> 00:57:05,839
many many many many lines of evidence

1560
00:57:10,630 --> 00:57:07,599
yes and um

1561
00:57:12,710 --> 00:57:10,640
i think from there i i kind of dropped

1562
00:57:15,589 --> 00:57:12,720
the jehovah

1563
00:57:17,349 --> 00:57:15,599
complex and um

1564
00:57:20,309 --> 00:57:17,359
i just kind of wandered around for a

1565
00:57:23,030 --> 00:57:20,319
while until um in the desert

1566
00:57:35,270 --> 00:57:23,040
for 40 years i really don't did you come

1567
00:57:41,109 --> 00:57:39,030
um this is geek hot tub

1568
00:57:43,589 --> 00:57:41,119
that was like four movie references in

1569
00:57:46,309 --> 00:57:43,599
five seconds and geeky movies

1570
00:57:47,750 --> 00:57:46,319
all the better yeah the only

1571
00:57:48,549 --> 00:57:47,760
someone was saying something whoever it

1572
00:57:52,630 --> 00:57:48,559
was

1573
00:57:53,589 --> 00:57:52,640
um

1574
00:57:55,990 --> 00:57:53,599
and

1575
00:57:57,750 --> 00:57:56,000
i you know i think the first podcast i

1576
00:58:00,549 --> 00:57:57,760
caught was uh

1577
00:58:02,549 --> 00:58:00,559
the skeptic's guide yep and uh a lot of

1578
00:58:04,470 --> 00:58:02,559
people come to us with the skeptics yeah

1579
00:58:06,549 --> 00:58:04,480
and that's sort of like i can't i don't

1580
00:58:07,510 --> 00:58:06,559
remember if it was you sarah graduate

1581
00:58:09,829 --> 00:58:07,520
from

1582
00:58:11,990 --> 00:58:09,839
they graduate

1583
00:58:14,390 --> 00:58:12,000
that's really kind of what happened um

1584
00:58:16,870 --> 00:58:14,400
you know that sort of opens god

1585
00:58:20,069 --> 00:58:16,880
opened my eyes to the

1586
00:58:21,589 --> 00:58:20,079
the quote community and uh branched out

1587
00:58:23,990 --> 00:58:21,599
from there well did you have the

1588
00:58:25,589 --> 00:58:24,000
experience of of knowing that you were a

1589
00:58:27,109 --> 00:58:25,599
skeptic before you had a word for it or

1590
00:58:29,349 --> 00:58:27,119
knowing that you were an atheist before

1591
00:58:32,069 --> 00:58:29,359
i knew i was a scientist

1592
00:58:34,069 --> 00:58:32,079
and uh i never really put skeptic to it

1593
00:58:35,750 --> 00:58:34,079
i saw michael shermer talk

1594
00:58:39,430 --> 00:58:35,760
and you know when i was younger i would

1595
00:58:41,589 --> 00:58:39,440
see him talk and go and do as so many do

1596
00:58:45,829 --> 00:58:41,599
and

1597
00:58:47,750 --> 00:58:45,839
uh sort of add cynic on top of right the

1598
00:58:50,309 --> 00:58:47,760
skeptic yeah and then i would hear him

1599
00:58:52,789 --> 00:58:50,319
talk and go this guy is making sense you

1600
00:58:54,230 --> 00:58:52,799
know that that's true actually one of my

1601
00:58:55,829 --> 00:58:54,240
early experiences with the australian

1602
00:58:58,309 --> 00:58:55,839
skeptics was i went to a public talk

1603
00:59:00,549 --> 00:58:58,319
about ufos and the guy speaking just

1604
00:59:01,829 --> 00:59:00,559
made so much clearer sense

1605
00:59:05,190 --> 00:59:01,839
and he didn't sound like a jerk he

1606
00:59:06,630 --> 00:59:05,200
didn't sound like cantankerous right

1607
00:59:08,069 --> 00:59:06,640
so richard i have a question for you

1608
00:59:09,990 --> 00:59:08,079
that i wanted to know is is my

1609
00:59:12,870 --> 00:59:10,000
understanding is that in australia

1610
00:59:15,190 --> 00:59:12,880
there's a lot less sort of religious um

1611
00:59:17,510 --> 00:59:15,200
fundamentalism and a lot of a lot sort

1612
00:59:19,510 --> 00:59:17,520
of less religious uh

1613
00:59:20,950 --> 00:59:19,520
you know belief yeah and more sort of

1614
00:59:22,630 --> 00:59:20,960
what what we in america would refer to

1615
00:59:25,670 --> 00:59:22,640
as woo-woo a lot of like

1616
00:59:27,430 --> 00:59:25,680
crystal healing etc whereas here we have

1617
00:59:28,630 --> 00:59:27,440
a lot of religious fundamentalism a lot

1618
00:59:30,230 --> 00:59:28,640
of like

1619
00:59:31,670 --> 00:59:30,240
hardcore christians

1620
00:59:33,589 --> 00:59:31,680
um

1621
00:59:35,829 --> 00:59:33,599
who would denounce in the same breath

1622
00:59:37,030 --> 00:59:35,839
the crystal healing exactly yeah so i i

1623
00:59:38,870 --> 00:59:37,040
want to know what your take is on that

1624
00:59:41,670 --> 00:59:38,880
we have pockets of

1625
00:59:43,430 --> 00:59:41,680
of the fundamentalists okay and i guess

1626
00:59:45,990 --> 00:59:43,440
a lot of countries suffer that problem

1627
00:59:48,390 --> 00:59:46,000
right um fundamentals christians yeah

1628
00:59:50,230 --> 00:59:48,400
yeah um well we got the the cults too

1629
00:59:53,109 --> 00:59:50,240
yeah but everything's sort of toned down

1630
00:59:54,950 --> 00:59:53,119
a bit yeah mainstream religion is just

1631
00:59:56,230 --> 00:59:54,960
part of the background really

1632
01:00:00,549 --> 00:59:56,240
it's interesting because here it seems

1633
01:00:04,230 --> 01:00:01,990
it kind of like kicks itself back up

1634
01:00:06,069 --> 01:00:04,240
periodically and i find it interesting

1635
01:00:07,910 --> 01:00:06,079
that this country has laws

1636
01:00:09,190 --> 01:00:07,920
with the separation of church and state

1637
01:00:10,230 --> 01:00:09,200
but you've got these

1638
01:00:12,069 --> 01:00:10,240
well that was another amount of

1639
01:00:13,430 --> 01:00:12,079
questions is that

1640
01:00:15,349 --> 01:00:13,440
you know separation of church and state

1641
01:00:17,829 --> 01:00:15,359
doesn't exist in say the uk and i don't

1642
01:00:19,910 --> 01:00:17,839
know what the law is in australia

1643
01:00:21,670 --> 01:00:19,920
and yet it seems that the government

1644
01:00:23,910 --> 01:00:21,680
there is less influenced

1645
01:00:26,470 --> 01:00:23,920
absolutely religion whereas here you

1646
01:00:29,270 --> 01:00:26,480
know we have like the family

1647
01:00:31,190 --> 01:00:29,280
scary prayer breakfasts

1648
01:00:32,950 --> 01:00:31,200
and that's that's sort of terrifying to

1649
01:00:34,950 --> 01:00:32,960
me just about any politician in

1650
01:00:36,230 --> 01:00:34,960
australia can get elected and no one

1651
01:00:37,910 --> 01:00:36,240
really gives

1652
01:00:40,150 --> 01:00:37,920
a rats about that so you think an

1653
01:00:42,069 --> 01:00:40,160
atheist could get elected in austria

1654
01:00:44,069 --> 01:00:42,079
we've had atheist prime minister i don't

1655
01:00:45,430 --> 01:00:44,079
think that's not an issue because here

1656
01:00:49,109 --> 01:00:45,440
uh there are

1657
01:00:51,270 --> 01:00:49,119
there are uh i and you know i'm gonna

1658
01:00:52,710 --> 01:00:51,280
do a cardinal sent and quote some

1659
01:00:54,230 --> 01:00:52,720
statistic without knowing where it came

1660
01:00:55,190 --> 01:00:54,240
from but uh

1661
01:00:58,230 --> 01:00:55,200
that

1662
01:01:00,630 --> 01:00:58,240
it would be harder for an atheist to get

1663
01:01:02,789 --> 01:01:00,640
um oh yeah to get elected here than than

1664
01:01:04,710 --> 01:01:02,799
a muslim oh absolutely because a muslim

1665
01:01:06,309 --> 01:01:04,720
could still say like well we all believe

1666
01:01:08,069 --> 01:01:06,319
i mean there's nothing i'm not saying

1667
01:01:09,270 --> 01:01:08,079
anything about muslims

1668
01:01:11,030 --> 01:01:09,280
it's just about just some franchise

1669
01:01:13,109 --> 01:01:11,040
population and what bothers me about the

1670
01:01:14,950 --> 01:01:13,119
united states a lot of sort of liberal

1671
01:01:17,030 --> 01:01:14,960
uh you know and i count myself as a

1672
01:01:20,630 --> 01:01:17,040
liberal or leftist um

1673
01:01:22,309 --> 01:01:20,640
you know religion in that sense is that

1674
01:01:24,549 --> 01:01:22,319
some people try to quote like well we

1675
01:01:27,030 --> 01:01:24,559
all believe in one god it's all one god

1676
01:01:28,950 --> 01:01:27,040
and it's it immediately instantly

1677
01:01:32,309 --> 01:01:28,960
negates those of us who don't believe in

1678
01:01:34,069 --> 01:01:32,319
a god at all yeah and yeah you know on

1679
01:01:36,390 --> 01:01:34,079
one level i can agree with them like yes

1680
01:01:37,910 --> 01:01:36,400
we should take care of our fellow man

1681
01:01:39,990 --> 01:01:37,920
um but just for a very different reason

1682
01:01:41,829 --> 01:01:40,000
and and it's it's really distressing to

1683
01:01:42,870 --> 01:01:41,839
hear you know when people talk about all

1684
01:01:44,309 --> 01:01:42,880
one god

1685
01:01:45,829 --> 01:01:44,319
immediately eliminating those of us who

1686
01:01:47,349 --> 01:01:45,839
don't believe in any god at all but i

1687
01:01:49,270 --> 01:01:47,359
think also in this conversation we've

1688
01:01:50,549 --> 01:01:49,280
eliminated people who are skeptics who

1689
01:01:52,710 --> 01:01:50,559
identify as skeptics but still are

1690
01:01:53,910 --> 01:01:52,720
religious that's true because i don't

1691
01:01:56,549 --> 01:01:53,920
think it's synonymous to say you're

1692
01:01:58,870 --> 01:01:56,559
skeptical and atheist but not always

1693
01:02:00,630 --> 01:01:58,880
just getting back to the topic of

1694
01:02:01,829 --> 01:02:00,640
the electing of someone i was just

1695
01:02:03,670 --> 01:02:01,839
thinking about it

1696
01:02:05,589 --> 01:02:03,680
it really even comes up in interviews

1697
01:02:07,190 --> 01:02:05,599
when they're talking to politicians what

1698
01:02:09,430 --> 01:02:07,200
their religious views are in australia

1699
01:02:11,910 --> 01:02:09,440
it's not an issue so can you fix the

1700
01:02:13,430 --> 01:02:11,920
taxes what happened about the roads

1701
01:02:14,630 --> 01:02:13,440
when you go to church oh that's nice now

1702
01:02:16,309 --> 01:02:14,640
what about this issue what about the

1703
01:02:18,230 --> 01:02:16,319
kangaroos yeah what are you gonna do

1704
01:02:20,470 --> 01:02:18,240
about the bloody kangaroos well here

1705
01:02:21,589 --> 01:02:20,480
it's like you know what i mean we have

1706
01:02:23,349 --> 01:02:21,599
the whole big government small

1707
01:02:24,309 --> 01:02:23,359
government issue

1708
01:02:25,589 --> 01:02:24,319
you know

1709
01:02:27,589 --> 01:02:25,599
we have conservatives who are worried

1710
01:02:29,510 --> 01:02:27,599
about quote big government uh getting in

1711
01:02:32,069 --> 01:02:29,520
the way of our businesses

1712
01:02:34,390 --> 01:02:32,079
and yet in the same breath they will say

1713
01:02:35,270 --> 01:02:34,400
we want you know gay people not to be

1714
01:02:36,630 --> 01:02:35,280
able to get married and we want

1715
01:02:38,630 --> 01:02:36,640
government to control who came married

1716
01:02:40,630 --> 01:02:38,640
who and then there's

1717
01:02:42,069 --> 01:02:40,640
the issue of like well liberals want you

1718
01:02:43,670 --> 01:02:42,079
know a small government in some sense in

1719
01:02:45,910 --> 01:02:43,680
a big government another

1720
01:02:47,510 --> 01:02:45,920
sense but what happens

1721
01:02:49,190 --> 01:02:47,520
there's always this umbrella issue of

1722
01:02:50,789 --> 01:02:49,200
like well as long as he has a he has

1723
01:02:52,950 --> 01:02:50,799
some sort of fate and it's always a he i

1724
01:02:54,230 --> 01:02:52,960
mean honestly

1725
01:02:56,390 --> 01:02:54,240
you know as long as there's some sort of

1726
01:02:57,030 --> 01:02:56,400
faith as long as he he trusts some sort

1727
01:02:59,750 --> 01:02:57,040
of

1728
01:03:02,069 --> 01:02:59,760
you know deity it's going to be okay

1729
01:03:04,549 --> 01:03:02,079
and like mr deity

1730
01:03:07,349 --> 01:03:04,559
which is such a funny show and i as a

1731
01:03:09,190 --> 01:03:07,359
woman i fully support his show about eve

1732
01:03:10,710 --> 01:03:09,200
big shout out to mrs

1733
01:03:12,870 --> 01:03:10,720
we enjoy your show

1734
01:03:14,309 --> 01:03:12,880
how you doing sir

1735
01:03:16,870 --> 01:03:14,319
certainly

1736
01:03:18,950 --> 01:03:16,880
brian call of duty sir ryan i think i'm

1737
01:03:22,549 --> 01:03:18,960
gonna have to come back in the not too

1738
01:03:24,470 --> 01:03:22,559
distant future and do another think tub

1739
01:03:25,990 --> 01:03:24,480
i think tubs are tubs are good well

1740
01:03:28,069 --> 01:03:26,000
worthwhile they've got no bus

1741
01:03:29,349 --> 01:03:28,079
announcements but that's just you know

1742
01:03:30,549 --> 01:03:29,359
yeah

1743
01:03:32,470 --> 01:03:30,559
a couple of people here could put their

1744
01:03:34,470 --> 01:03:32,480
clothes back on that would really

1745
01:03:35,829 --> 01:03:34,480
kind of oh oh my gosh my mother can

1746
01:03:38,150 --> 01:03:35,839
never listen to i mean i find that my

1747
01:03:40,069 --> 01:03:38,160
own thinking has been you know somewhat

1748
01:03:42,150 --> 01:03:40,079
like

1749
01:04:04,470 --> 01:03:42,160
screwed up by the tub

1750
01:04:08,950 --> 01:04:06,630
on that cultural note i'd like to thank

1751
01:04:10,470 --> 01:04:08,960
every everybody for joining me and brian

1752
01:04:11,430 --> 01:04:10,480
and this is hot tub

1753
01:04:13,750 --> 01:04:11,440
tonight

1754
01:04:16,309 --> 01:04:13,760
you're here and um brian i'll try to

1755
01:04:18,069 --> 01:04:16,319
make one my way back i hope so we'll

1756
01:04:21,829 --> 01:04:18,079
make this a monthly event thank you

1757
01:04:38,309 --> 01:04:23,589
we don't have any glasses to clean so

1758
01:04:42,150 --> 01:04:40,309
hi i'm jason and i'm andrew from the

1759
01:04:44,789 --> 01:04:42,160
nonsense podcast bringing you a

1760
01:04:46,470 --> 01:04:44,799
skeptical overview of news religion and

1761
01:04:48,309 --> 01:04:46,480
all forms of pseudoscience we're

1762
01:04:49,829 --> 01:04:48,319
defending science and reason against the

1763
01:04:51,750 --> 01:04:49,839
onslaught of medical and spiritual

1764
01:04:53,910 --> 01:04:51,760
nonsense all week we are busy

1765
01:04:56,710 --> 01:04:53,920
researching and debunking pseudoscience

1766
01:05:00,029 --> 01:04:56,720
but on the seventh day we listen to the

1767
01:05:01,670 --> 01:05:00,039
skeptic zone check us out at

1768
01:05:14,950 --> 01:05:01,680
nonsensepodcast.lipsin.com or search for

1769
01:05:18,150 --> 01:05:16,789
thanks for joining me for this week's

1770
01:05:19,510 --> 01:05:18,160
skeptic zone

1771
01:05:23,190 --> 01:05:19,520
don't forget to check out the new

1772
01:05:26,230 --> 01:05:23,200
podcast by kylie sturges token skeptic

1773
01:05:27,990 --> 01:05:26,240
at tokenskeptic.org

1774
01:05:30,549 --> 01:05:28,000
and thanks to kylie for putting together

1775
01:05:33,190 --> 01:05:30,559
our recent skeptic zone survey and thank

1776
01:05:35,190 --> 01:05:33,200
you to everybody who wrote in and took

1777
01:05:37,190 --> 01:05:35,200
part in the survey

1778
01:05:38,870 --> 01:05:37,200
many interesting results for us to look

1779
01:05:40,069 --> 01:05:38,880
through i'm glad most of you seem to

1780
01:05:41,829 --> 01:05:40,079
like the show

1781
01:05:43,670 --> 01:05:41,839
lots of good comments lots of good uh

1782
01:05:44,630 --> 01:05:43,680
constructive criticism which we take on

1783
01:05:46,710 --> 01:05:44,640
board

1784
01:05:49,750 --> 01:05:46,720
and just one point all the ads you hear

1785
01:05:51,430 --> 01:05:49,760
on on the skeptic zone are actually um

1786
01:05:53,670 --> 01:05:51,440
done as favors there is no paid

1787
01:05:55,589 --> 01:05:53,680
advertising on the skeptic zone we

1788
01:05:56,870 --> 01:05:55,599
advertise people we think you might like

1789
01:05:59,109 --> 01:05:56,880
to hear about

1790
01:06:01,430 --> 01:05:59,119
just so you know and of course if you

1791
01:06:04,390 --> 01:06:01,440
want to help the skeptic zone you can

1792
01:06:08,150 --> 01:06:04,400
contribute by donation or subscribe

1793
01:06:12,549 --> 01:06:10,150
well enough of all that thanks again for

1794
01:06:15,029 --> 01:06:12,559
listening and until next time this is

1795
01:06:19,109 --> 01:06:15,039
richard saunders signing off from sydney

1796
01:06:22,789 --> 01:06:20,789
you've been listening to the skeptic

1797
01:06:26,150 --> 01:06:22,799
zone visit our website at